In perhaps his first proper TV interview after nearly 20 years in power, Tripura Chief Minister Manik Sarkar tells Shekhar Gupta how he quietly folded back the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, police station by police station, unknown to the rest of the country. However, he says, he fully supports the security forces. He also tells us why he thinks LK Advani was India's best Home Minister.
Following is the full transcript of the show:Shekhar Gupta: Hello, and welcome to Walk The Talk, I am Shekhar Gupta and in a place that most of you are not likely to have come to and in fact many of you may not even have heard about it, it is Agartala, the capital of Tripura, a state of not even 40 lakh people and my guest for today; really a usual personality for many reasons but two outstanding reasons. One, he is the most successful Chief Minister in India, now in his fourth term and 18th year, most successful in a very long time. And two, for the Left in India, Mr Manik Sarkar you are the last man standing. Welcome to Walk The Talk. So you are you aware of this distinction that you have, which may not be the most flattering distinction that Indian Left has only one man standing, one Chief Minister standing.
Manik Sarkar: That is correct but I am hopeful in coming days I shall be going to get my colleagues from some other states who will also join with me, at this moment yes, this is the only Left lit state.
Shekhar Gupta: But Sir, if you look at West Bengal and Tripura there is not that much difference in population based demographics, although there is tribal population in Tripura, but large majority is Bengali. How come the Left is so successful in Tripura but not quite so in West Bengal now?
Manik Sarkar: You see in West Bengal, in the last Assembly elections, the Left lost there are reasons, every state has its own specific characteristics, so at that point of time the national level reactionary forces and from within the West Bengal, all non-Left political parties, they clubbed together creating lot of problems there. Because of all those things actually some confusion created among the minds of the people and they are there for 34 years. The state government could not fulfill the aspirations of the common people of the West Bengal, this is quite likely so because of these things they lost, but here in Tripura we have been trying our level best. One, we are trying to maintain unity between the tribals and the non-tribals.
Shekhar Gupta: There was a particular incident when a big massacre took place of Bengalis, almost on the eve of elections. What happened, did that massacre turn the elections?
Manik Sarkar: Yes, that created a lot of problem. Particularly they confused the urban Bengali people. That was a calculated thing. You see just on the eve, 6 or 7 days earlier, of the elections 93 Bengali people were killed, old women, children, it created a lot of problems.
Shekhar Gupta: But was it part of what you just called a conspiracy?
Manik Sarkar: Yes, that was a part of conspiracy.
Shekhar Gupta: And who carried it out? Enough time has passed now Sir.
Manik Sarkar: At that time I should say Raj Bhawan was also involved. Mr Santosh was there and on the eve of the elections knowledge than 8 to 10 Union Ministers were campaigning. They were campaigning in the state guesthouse. They even controlled the election commission here in Tripura.
Shekhar Gupta: So there was a history of massacres, two sides of it, one the tribals feeling that they had become minorities in their own state because Bengalis have come from all over, but mainly from East Bengal after partition and second, tribals organising them in armed groups and then carrying out these massacres against the Bengalis to drive them away. How did you repair that situation, because that's where your success lies? I have argued with the Left for a long time including in 10 years of UPA but I speak with you in admiration.
Manik Sarkar: Our party, CPI (M), right from the beginning we have been trying our level best to maintain unity between tribals and non-tribals. Dasharath Debbarma, he belongs to tribal community but it was actually called by the tribal people that he is our crownless king. So right from the beginning we have tried our level best to make them understand, so the unity shall have to be maintained; that is what our appeal. In Tripura tribals cannot survive without the help and cooperation of the Bengalis and the Bengalis cannot survive without the help and cooperation of the tribals.
Shekhar Gupta: Sir, I can understand tribals needing Bengalis because they are such a majority and the elites government officers, doctors, journalists mostly Bengali, but why should be tribals be important for the Bengalis survival?
Manik Sarkar: Because actually Tripura was tribal dominated, they were majority because of influx of non-tribals, Hindu Bengalis, they have been converted to minorities, thereby the demography of the state changed. It is a qualitative difference. So in this situation if you fail to maintain the unity between the tribals and non-tribals then how the state will go forward? Keeping that in mind to develop the democratic unity between both tribals and non-tribals, right from the beginning we have been trying our level best to maintain this unity but on the other hand, contrary to that, Congress party here in Tripura, they actually survived by creating divisions both between tribals and non-tribals.
Shekhar Gupta: Sir, when I said you are a remarkable person for two reasons, I deliberately held the third one because I knew the conversation will immediately shift to that, so one reason was you were the last Leftist standing in power in India, although there is one more exception, the Mayor in Shimla is strangely from your party. Number two you are a fourth term Chief Minister and so popular but third, you are that one Chief Minister in the North East who has, on its own, withdrawn the AFSPA. So did you get the courage to do that and why did you do it? You are going against the current stream of thought.
Manik Sarkar: Because you see the situation has improved, that's why we have taken this decision. But all of a sudden we have not done it because this AFSPA was introduced in the year 1997, at that time Dasarath Deb was the Chief Minister. Government of Tripura sought help from the Centre, asked for Army, because without Army at that point of time the problem of extremist was not in the position to be tackled.
Shekhar Gupta: Your groups were getting mixed up with the other groups from neighbouring states at that point, some of this coalition had started coming up Nagas, Tritpuris.
Manik Sarkar: They were helping, behind them ISI was there and they were using the soil of Bangladesh at that point of time. Our state police strength was very limited. They used 3.3...
Shekhar Gupta: Sir, I remember, when I used to come to see Nripin Chakraborty his guard outside had a 3.3, which I don't think had been cleaned for 50 years. Something like that, it was full of rust. I thought if he fires it somewhere it will harm him.
Manik Sarkar: So these extremists, they were possessing most sophisticated arms, but the state police numerically the strength was very limited and firepower was also very limited. At that point of time there was no other option but to go to the Government of India and ask for the Army. At that time they insisted that the Army cannot operate until and unless AFSPA is introduced, so there was no other option, the Dasarath Deb government was forced to clamp its AFSPA. So anyhow at that time you see more than half of the state was covered by AFSPA, this disturbing act. At that time our number of police stations was only 40, now of course it is 74, we have increased this number. So then gradually what we have done we have tried our level best, rouse the people of our state, both the tribals and the non-tribals against this extremist activity. Peace is the most important thing, without peace there cannot be developmental activities, these are very much interlinked. For development peace is needed and for peace development is very essential, interlinked. To make our people aware and conscious that yes, extremists are creating lot of problems particularly among the tribals, we tried our level best to make them understand, because these extremists outfits, they have been formed and misleading the tribal youth in particular.
Shekhar Gupta: Sir, I believe that the Prime Minister asked you for a paper for a study on how Tripura had handled this situation?
Manik Sarkar: Present Prime Minister.
Shekhar Gupta: Yes, present Prime Minister Mr Modi. You wrote one for him, your government had sent one for him because they want that to be a model for others states.
Manik Sarkar: I do not know, he asked me that I have actually sent a small note of our experiences, so after that actually we started our political and ideology campaign. The extremist outfits raised some political questions; they raised some political questions until and unless answering all these questions they cannot be fought back, that is what we have done. Second most important thing, developmental activities, they used to say how are we, the tribals, no roads, no schools, no hospitals, no drinking water nothing is there, no irrigation so what's the use of keeping ourselves with India? Let us leave India. Their main slogan was Independent Tripura. That is a citizen's slogan not terrorist alone; this is a citizen's slogan. So in this situation we have undertaken developmental activities.
Shekhar Gupta: I mean to that extent they were totally different from Maoists in Chhattisgarh.
Manik Sarkar: Yes, totally different.
Shekhar Gupta: So Sir, when did you come to the conclusion that now I can withdraw AFSPA?
Manik Sarkar: With these activities we have approached them; the extremists, we approached them. Please come to dialogue, you talk to us, if you don't like to talk to us you can talk to the Government of India. We shall not oppose to that, rather we shall try our level best to make Government of India convince to talk to you.
Shekhar Gupta: And you did not get the state government indulging in dirty tricks with them. As I am afraid some of your neighbouring state governments do.
Manik Sarkar: That I don't like to pass any comment, but one thing I must tell you very clearly, if Government involves with these extremists activities covertly or overtly, then how this problem can be solved? This cannot be solved. The Government and the political parties who are running the government, they must be very serious and sincere and assertive in dealing with these extremists, politically, ideologically, administratively and of course organizationally.
Shekhar Gupta: Manik Sarkar you may be shy, you may not want to say because of your obvious, of diplomatic reasons, but I will say Manipur, for example government is as caught up in all this as insurgent groups. In fact I always say that Manipur doesn't have insurgency, it has 30 extortionist-armed groups. State government is one of them irrespective of who runs the state government.
Manik Sarkar: I don't like to pass any comments. It might be your experience, my friend is there at the chair of Chief Minister Okram Ibobi Singh, so this might be your experience.
Shekhar Gupta: But he is some distance away from withdrawing AFSPA in his state because his state is the messiest right now in the North East .
Manik Sarkar: So you see gradually we have started withdrawing this disturb area act from one after other police station. After every six months we had to undertake review, so last time when our police came to us then I told them you review all this thing, whether this item is necessary to continue? Then they came with their conclusion how the situation is well under control; perhaps it is not needed now. It is up to the political leadership they may take this decision. Then you discuss in our Cabinet and Cabinet came to the conclusion that first the necessity of continuing this Act here in Tripura, let us withdraw it, then we have taken a decision to withdraw it
Shekhar Gupta: So this is cooperative federalism at work
Manik Sarkar: What I have told the Union Home Minister that this should not be allowed to continue for years together like Nagaland. Of course I don't have to mention the name of Nagaland, but I told them that this drifting is not proper, so since the dialogue has started, we have had two meetings. As early as possible this should be concluded so Government of India should take necessary steps in this regard. And on the other hand what we have said at the time of dialogue, these extremists outfit should be cautioned that they should not undertake any violence, and we are also telling we are not going for ceasefire. Our security forces will act and there will be no ceasefire, we shall not allow it. That is what I have always told.
Shekhar Gupta: So, if they create mischief you will immediately respond. Sir, if I conclude from this your withdrawal of AFSPA is not ideological but practical and I can also see why. I know you will not take it as a compliment, but you are the Chief Minister most admired by the BJP leadership, and I can take you back to Mr Vajpayee and Mr Advani. Mr Advani was a great fan of yours; in fact he said so in public.
Manik Sarkar: He was the most successful Home Minister.
Shekhar Gupta: Mr Advani, you rate him high also?
Manik Sarkar: Yes, I must tell because I have got the opportunity to work with the 4-5 Home Ministers, among them I think he is successful.
Shekhar Gupta: Advani, Chidambram, Shinde, Patil and now Rajnath Singh, so what was it that led to a great chemistry between you and Advani?
Manik Sarkar: Actually, I think he must have seen that we are sincerely trying our level best to tackle this situation, and whatever demands I used to raise before him, he found the merit in it. He tried his level best to help and cooperate with us.
Shekhar Gupta: You have not seen this ideological tension between you and BJP governments in Delhi?
Manik Sarkar: Those days?
Shekhar Gupta: Those days or now?
Manik Sarkar: Ideological difference is there.
Shekhar Gupta: But tensions in dealing with them or you haven't felt victimized, that this another party's government, another ideologies' government in Delhi?
Manik Sarkar: I think, you see during those days, when Mr Vajpayee was the Prime Minister, ideologically, politically, I must say they did not try to create that sort of trouble since ours is a Left-led Government.
Shekhar Gupta: What about this government, Mr Modi's government since he has come in?
Manik Sarkar: Modi's Government, only one year is not enough, so we shall have to wait. But the performance of the Modi Government, number of steps they have taken by this time, these are not helpful for us.
Shekhar Gupta: Such as what?
Manik Sarkar: You see they have dislodged this Planning Commission, so they have introduced this Niti Aayog. It has caused a lot of problems for us, not for the state Tripura alone, but for all the special category states of this North Eastern region. Because at the time of the Planning Commission we used to get money from the Planning Commission, that is the money of the government on different heads. So since it has been dislodged so where you shall go? There is no discussion between the state government and the Niti Aayog. Earlier every year we used to have a meeting between the Vice Chairman of the Planning Commission and the Chief Minister of the state. They used to come with their own ideas, set of ideas; we used to go with our own ideas.
Shekhar Gupta: With bouquets for Mr Ahluwalia.
Manik Sarkar: Generally I did not take any bouquet, but there was good discussion between us. We used to express our mind; they used to try their level best to convince us with their own points, with their own views. There were contradictions, no doubt about it, but ultimately we used to get some money. But now since this Planning Commission is not there, Niti Aayog has come. Niti Aayog is not actually organising that sought of discussion. We have raised this point with the Prime Minister, not by me alone, all the North Eastern region Chief Ministers unitedly adopted one resolution, and that resolution drawing the attention to the Prime Minister of India.
Shekhar Gupta: What does he say when you raised this?
Manik Sarkar: He listened, that is the trouble; he did not pass any comment. He listened to us, actually we sent this resolution that we were getting money from the Government of India through Planning Commission.
Shekhar Gupta: I think that this almost looks like a demographic painting of your state, people of every community.
Manik Sarkar: This is the sign of unity.
Shekhar Gupta: This is the sign of unity and I can see the most prominent is a tribal, in fact one, two tribals; young, tribal lady. So that's the problem you are having.
Manik Sarkar: It's a big problem you see; in absence of Planning Commission we are losing more than two thousand and five crores in a year.
Shekhar Gupta: Sir, if you don't mind my asking you one personal question, I know that you Leftists don't like it, you de-personalise your lives. Tell us something about how you lead your life, you take very small allowance from your party, I think Rs 5,000 or Rs 6000?
Manik Sarkar: Now party is giving me Rs 10,000.
Shekhar Gupta: Rs 10,000, that's a raise. I think it's still below the minimum wage, so the party should be charged with the Minimum Wages Act. And your assets are very small, some Rs 20,000-30,000 if one sees. How do you structure your life around this and second everybody has liabilities, everybody has the concerns about his future, old age?
Manik Sarkar: Actually I have learned from my party, my party has taught me to lead a very simple life. What is needed you should try to manage it; what is not needed you should not be lavish. That is what I have learnt from the party and here what I shall tell you? My wife is there, she is helping me like anything. She was a Central government officer at one point of time. Of course now she has retired so she is also getting some pension. She is very, very helpful in this regard, so we are very, very friendly.
Shekhar Gupta: Her assets are little bit bigger than yours, but that doesn't take much doing your assets are so small.
Manik Sarkar: I have no problem.
Shekhar Gupta: That's because you say you have no problem, but frankly in all of India at least one state in the North East has no problem. So congratulations Sir, and in fact I had never thought, when I used to come here as a reporter, that Tripura will show the way to the rest of the North East. But you have done so and all credit to you. It's my privilege that you found time for me; I know it's almost your first full length interview to an independent TV channel and stop being so shy, next time we will go for a walk.