Crossfire

What's at Stake in Tonight's Third Presidential Debate?

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BILL PRESS, CO-HOST: Tonight, the third and final debate is just 90 minutes away. Will George W. Bush be able too defend his Texas record? Will Al Gore be able to defend his credibility?

ANNOUNCER: Live from Washington, CROSSFIRE.

On the left, Bill Press. On the right, Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE, in St. Louis, Missouri, Democratic National Committee General Chairman and Gore supporter Ed Rendell and Republican Governor Christine Whitman, a Bush supporter.

PRESS: Good evening, welcome to CROSSFIRE.

Meet me in St. Louis, Jim Lehrer told Al Gore and George Bush, and they will tonight, in just an hour and a half, squaring off for their third and final debate before an old-fashioned town hall.

With continuing tension in the Middle East, they're sure to get questions about foreign policy. And with CNN's latest poll still showing a very tight race, Bush 47, Gore 43 with a 4-point margin of error, both candidates will also be looking to score points on tax cuts, health care and education. But first, Gore and Bush will pay tribute to the man who was supposed to host tonight's debate, Missouri's Governor Mel Carnahan, killed with his son and a campaign aide late last night in the crash of his campaign plane.

Then it will be back to issues. Will Bush take the high road? Will Gore take off the gloves? We primed the pump tonight with our pre-debate debate. Bob Novak is with our guests near the debate site in St. Louis and I'm holding down the fort here in Washington.

Governor Whitman, first question for you: Governor, there is legislation introduced in Congress now to restrict the distribution of the abortion pill, RU-486. After waffling for a couple of weeks, the Bush campaign has announced that, if elected president, George Bush would sign that legislation. Governor, you're known for being a pro- choice Republican; do you agree with that decision restricting distribution of RU-486?

GOV. CHRISTIE WHITMAN (R), NEW JERSEY: Obviously I wouldn't. I believe that that pill should be available within the constraints of making sure that the woman is given the appropriate treatment. What we've seen where it has been distributed is, actually, doctors have backed away from it because it is very complicated. It's not just one visit, one pill. It requires several visits.

But I hope that it will be available to American women. It has been used in France for 11 years now and proved to be a good alternative.

PRESS: But what do you say, governor, to Governor Bush and other members of your party who would let politicians and not medical scientists decide what drugs are distributed in this country? I mean, should members of Congress, should a president be making that decision?

Obviously you agree not. So what do you tell them?

WHITMAN: Well I disagree with them on this particular issues and this position on it, but there's so much more that's important to me that George Bush stands for: education of our children, Texas was No. 1 in improving scores, particularly among Hispanics and African Americans. I care about tax policy, I care about the environment. I care about all the issues where he has a proven record in Texas.

So, while we disagree on this one, there's much more that I agree on and I think he's going to be able to show that to the people tonight.

PRESS: Governor, you're absolutely right, it's not the only issue, but if you're an American woman and choice is the most important issue and you want to preserve Roe v. Wade and when George Bush says he'll appoint justices like Scalia and Thomas, and now he says he'll sign this legislation -- if choice is you No. 1 issue, women ought to vote for Al Gore, correct?

WHITMAN: No, I don't think so because one thing George Bush has said is he...

PRESS: Well, why not?

WHITMAN: ... because he has said what he'd do is appoint strict constructionists. That's what I've done in New Jersey because to me that means justices that understand the role of the justice of the Supreme Court in the Constitution. It's interpreting the laws, not making the laws.

And if you look at the appointments that he has made to the bench in Texas, you will see "The New York Times" had to admit, that these are moderate justices. All we can ask of someone -- he has deep personal convictions, they're different than mine, but his appointments have not been extreme appointments.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Chairman Ed Rendell, there's been all kinds of speculation in the press and elsewhere that Al Gore was too hot in the first debate, he was too cold in the second debate, he's going to be just in between in this debate; and let's hear what his opponent had to say about this just yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH (R-TX), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A lot of people want to take the measure of the man running. A lot of people are interested in somebody who is just going to tell it like it is, not try to be one thing in one debate and try to be something else the next debate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Doesn't your candidate have a big problem there?

ED RENDELL, DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE GENERAL CHAIRMAN: Well, Bob, before I answer the temperature question, I want to briefly respond to what Governor Whitman said. There's no question that American women who are pro-choice should vote for Al Gore. George Bush gave a clear signal, and Bill mentioned it in his question; he said he would appoint Supreme Court justices like Clarence Thomas, good gosh, and Anton Scalia, two hard-liners.

NOVAK: Let's answer my question, please.

RENDELL: All right, on the temperature question: Al Gore has got to be himself. I think he got some advice on how to approach the first two debates that wasn't good advice.

Al Gore is smart, he's knowledgeable. I think he's the best qualified and experienced person ever to run for president in my lifetime. He's just got to go out there and be Al Gore; be aggressive, but be aggressive and respect the rules of the debate. Make your points. Don't let Governor Bush -- I thought in debate No. 2 he let Governor Bush get away with murder.

For example, when the governor said that European countries had to get involved in providing ground troops in Kosovo, Bob, as a Republican that must have embarrassed you because you know that 28 European countries already have troops on the ground in Kosovo.

NOVAK: Mr. Chairman don't take my word for it and don't take George W. Bush's word for it. Let's take Peter Hart, who is a loyal Democrat, one of America's great pollsters.

He said this, quote: "Voters have seen too many Al Gores in the last two debates. The voter gets confused," end quote. My goodness, this is his 25th debate of his life. If they get confused by him in debating, why should they vote for him?

RENDELL: Well, first of all, because the presidency is more than just about debates, Bob. The presidency is about where you stand on the real issues. Real choices, just like choice for American women. Just like whether we spend the tax cut giving huge tax breaks to the rich or whether we spend it on children's health care and education.

And so even beyond the debates, people should focus on the issues. The difference in the two candidates on the issues and the big choices that we have to make.

NOVAK: Let me just put one more point in. In the "Nashville Tennessean," which is the paper that Al Gore used to work for and is right in town in Nashville, they had a story today about another flip- flop. They discovered that, back when he first ran for the Senate, he said that the gay lifestyle was unacceptable.

Now he says he's for gay rights. Doesn't Al Gore just flip-flop depending which way the expediency goes?

RENDELL: No, Bob; he doesn't flip-flop, his positions evolve like any smart person who takes in new information.

But let me tell by a flip-flop: how about Governor Bush on RU- 486? He lied in the first debate when he said he couldn't do anything about it as president. His campaign had already put out a press release saying he would sign legislation to overturn it, and now he's come back to that position. The voters should be ticked off.

Al Gore may make mistakes in stories about his life, but George Bush is lying to us about our lives, about our lives.

PRESS: Governor Whitman, I hear you laughing.

WHITMAN: I'm sorry, that's a little bit too much to say, he may have made mistakes about his life. He has changed his story on his positions and what he's done and legislation he's sponsored. Who is he?

RENDELL: What about RU-486, you don't consider that a flip-flop, governor?

WHITMAN: I would consider that he has decided that, in fact, the weight of evidence, the medical weight of evidence -- because there are two sides on this, comes down against it. I happen to disagree with that.

PRESS: Governor, Mr. Chairman.

RENDELL: When he said he didn't have the power to do anything about it. That was bogus and you know it.

WHITMAN: Well, it was bogus of the vice president to say he co- sponsored the campaign finance legislation -- he didn't even serve with Senator Feingold.

Come on, that's a much deeper distinction.

PRESS: Governor and Mr. Chairman enough on that issue, let's move on.

Governor Whitman, if you were on the ticket you know that all of us in Washington in the press corps would be examining your record in New Jersey with a fine-tooth comb and very fairly. Well, some people, including Al Gore, have looked at the record of the governor of Texas like he did in the last debate on health care.

I want to remind you what Al Gore had to say about George Bush's record on health care. Here's a clip from the last debate. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AL GORE (D), VICE PRESIDENT: There is a record here, and Texas ranks 49th out of the 50 states in health care -- in children with health care; 49th for women with health care, and 50th for families with health care.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PRESS: Now, as you remember, governor, George Bush never disputed those facts.

WHITMAN: Right.

PRESS: Instead he accused Al Gore of calling him hard-hearted.

But I want to ask you the question, governor, that Al Gore asked George Bush: if you were governor and you had a huge surplus and your state ranked 49 out of 50th covering children with health care, wouldn't you use part of that surplus to boost your ranking, maybe, up to 45th or 44th instead of giving all the money away in a big tax cut?

WHITMAN: Well, that's not what he did.

PRESS: Sure is.

WHITMAN: It is absolutely not what they did. They've increased the number of children covered by health care by over 23 percent in the state of Texas. Don't forget -- we didn't get that legislation until a time cycle where the Texas legislature was out.

He's been able to increase the number of children covered by "Kid Care" we call it in New Jersey, but for health insurance at a record that far surpasses what we've been able to do, and we've been at it now for years. It's a very difficult thing to reach the population, but they've been making real strides, $1.8 billion spent on health care.

PRESS: Well, Governor, I'm glad you mentioned that figure, because that's not, going to the last debate, what George Bush said he had spent on health care. In fact, let me remind you what he repeated over and over again that he spent on health care.

Here again is George Bush now in the last debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We spend $4.7 billion a year on the uninsured in the state of Texas.

We spend $4.7 billion a year in the state of Texas for uninsured people.

We pay $4.7 billion.

(END VIDEO CLIP) WHITMAN: No, that's the entire...

PRESS: No, Governor...

WHITMAN: That's the total...

PRESS: No, it was...

WHITMAN: That's for all people. I'm talking about, and I'm more apt to be wrong about his numbers than he is.

PRESS: But let me point out, he said $4.7 billion. It was reported today in "The New York Times" that $3.5 billion of that was from charitable organizations. The state only spent 1.2 billion. So Bush was actually lying about what he's done on health care in that debate.

WHITMAN: That's not -- that's what's being spent in Texas. The point is how many people are you reaching, and are you making a difference, are you starting to get more children covered, are you getting more families covered. That's something that all of us face as a challenge in the states, and they're doing a very good job of it in Texas.

What you've got to look at is where did they started from. And they started very low. And you might have to go back to a Texas governor to find out why it was so low to begin with.

PRESS: It started at 49, it's still at 49.

Governor Whitman and Mr, Chairman Rendell will be right back with Bob Novak, but right now we're going to take a break. And here's tonight's online audience vote. We ask you to participate. Go to CNN.com/CROSSFIRE and please tell us whether the debates have helped you decide who you're going to vote for. We'll have the results at the end of the show.

When we come back, more issues, more debates from St. Louis.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE.

In less than 90 minutes from now, here at the athletic complex on Washington University campus in St. Louis, the third and final presidential debate will take place.

Will Al Gore shoot craps again, or will the vice president take George W. Bush to the cleaners? The answers to those questions could determine who's the next president of the United States.

We're talking to New Jersey Governor Christine Whitman for the Republicans and the general chairman of the Democratic Party, Edward G. Rendell.

Ed Rendell, I'd like you to listen to something that Governor Bush said yesterday on the campaign trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I may have to remind America that I'm running against a man who's going to grow the federal government with the biggest growth plan since -- gosh, it's hard to tell since when. It's three times bigger than President Clinton's plans, his plans on the federal budget. His plans on the federal budget with your taxpayer's money is larger than Michael Dukakis and Walter Mondale's plans combined.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Ed Rendell, the governor is saying something about the plans for spending by Vice President Gore being three times as much as Bill Clinton's. That comes straight from a bipartisan organization called the Committee for a Fair Budget. Aren't you worried about your candidate being branded by a bipartisan group as a big spender?

RENDELL: No, not at all, because the American people have made it pretty clear, Bob, they would rather spend the money on education, on prescription drugs, on care for the elderly, on shoring up Medicare and Social Security than they would in giving almost 30 percent of the entire surplus back to the richest 1 percent and the elimination of the estate tax and in Governor Bush's tax cut plan.

I think our priorities are in the right place.

Let's take children's health care for just one example. The governor said -- Governor Whitman said that Governor Bush had expanded the level of coverage. Well, in the '99 Texas budget, Governor Bush, despite the pleas by advocates and members of the legislature to put it at 200 percent of poverty, coverage for the CHIPs program, he reduced it to a 150 percent of poverty, leaving out a quarter of a million Texas kids.

The only reason health coverage for kids has grown in Texas is because the legislature overruled him. And those are the priorities that Americans are going to look for.

NOVAK: Mayor Rendell, I know your talking points. You want to talk about Texas, but I want to talk about the Gore spending, which you don't want to talk about.

RENDELL: No, I just said...

NOVAK: Just a minute. The Committee for a Responsible Budget includes Leon Panetta, who was President Clinton's budget director, includes Alice Rivlin, who he appointed to the Federal Reserve, and they say that Al Gore's numbers, on his claims of 42 percent of the tax cut going to the top 1 percent of the taxpayers is a big exaggeration. It's not the truth.

RENDELL: Bob, that is -- it's not the truth if you just take the Bush across-the-board tax-cut plan. But if you combine it with the elimination of the estate tax...

NOVAK: No, they combine it. They say it's still not the truth.

RENDELL: Bob, I...

NOVAK: You take a look at that report.

RENDELL: I have seen the numbers, and it is the truth, no matter -- and in any event...

NOVAK: All right, let's...

RENDELL: In any event, why do we spend more money on prescription drugs for the elderly? Because we have it to spend because we haven't given it back to the richest 1 percent, the millionaires of this country.

NOVAK: Let me tell you one other thing this committee...

PRESS: Governor...

NOVAK: ,,, says, Mr. Rendell, and that is that the proposal by Al Gore, which he calls a tax cut, is not a tax cut. It's a new entitlement. Have you looked at that report?

RENDELL: No, I haven't looked at that. But I know if I was a middle class person in this country, the most important thing to me would be able to afford college for my kids. Al Gore is giving -- making $10,000 deductible to send your kids to college. Now, Bob...

PRESS: Governor...

RENDELL: ... you tell a middle class family who's struggling, you tell them that that's not a tax cut.

NOVAK: All right, Governor Whitman, we haven't forgotten you. We're coming back to you right now, Governor.

You know, this morning's "Washington Post" reports again that this is a very close race. They actually show Bush 48, Gore 44 in their latest tracking poll. But something inside that "Washington Post" poll is what I want to ask you about, Governor. They ask the question, which candidate has the right kind of experience to be president, and here's with it shows: Gore 74 percent, Bush only 58 percent.

Governor, isn't that Bush's Achilles heel, his lack of experience? And isn't it even more critical now with a foreign policy crisis in the Middle East and the bombing of the USS Cole?

WHITMAN: Well, in fact, I've seen other polls that indicate it's much closer than that. And the experience that George Bush would bring to the presidency is a chief executive, as somebody who has actually had to deliver, not just talk about promises, not just talk about what they've done, but actually do things, is incredibly important.

And if you look at the way -- there was just a very recent article in the "New York Times" yesterday about how he's been able to reach across the aisle to Democrats in Texas to get things done. We've had eight years of Clinton-Gore having a spitting contest with the Congress, not able to move major priorities through the way they wanted to and get this country on track.

And if you look at foreign policy, look at the team that George Bush has put together. Besides, it's OK. He knows a lot about foreign policy, because the governor, funnily enough -- you made not believe this, but you actually do deal with other countries. And he's done that.

PRESS: Well, but, Governor...

WHITMAN: And if you look at Dick Cheney and his experience, you cannot beat that.

PRESS: Governor, let me point out that it was Colin Powell, a member of that team, who advised Bill Clinton to expand the mission in Somalia and start going after the warlords down there. And it was Colin Powell who left Saddam Hussein in power after the Persian Gulf War. Why should we have confidence in that Bush team? They screwed up before. They'll screw up again.

WHITMAN: Now, you're talking about decisions made by the commander in chief. And Colin Powell was a lot of things, but he was not commander in chief. But, you know, there's something else we need to worry about. While we all admit that our military is the finest in the world, and the men and women who wear our uniform are the best that they can be, there's a real problem here. I can speak -- and I know George Bush could, because he is also, as a governor, commander in chief of his National Guard -- in New Jersey, we have -- one of our missions is helicopters.

We have 32 of them. But only -- we can only fly six of them, because of the lack of parts and the lack of financial support.

(CROSSTALK)

WHITMAN: This a major problem that has to be dealt with by the next administration.

NOVAK: That will have to end the pre-debate debate, as we wait for the real debate. Governor Whitman, thank you very much.

WHITMAN: It's a pleasure.

NOVAK: Chairman Rendell, thank you.

PRESS: Thanks, Governor. Thanks, Chairman.

NOVAK: And for a real mini-debate called closing comments, Bill Press and I will be back in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PRESS: OK, earlier we asked you: Have the debates helped you decide who you are going vote for? The results are in: 56 percent of you said no. And only 44 percent of you said yes. I don't know. They're not making up their mind on the debates. What are they making up their mind on? We will find out maybe.

OK, Robert, you're in St. Louis. I am not. I have a favor to ask you. I would like to you stop the vice president on his way into the hall tonight and give him a message from me: Take the gloves off, no more Mr. Nice Guy. Bob, tell Al Gore to be as mean to George Bush as you are to me.

NOVAK: No, you see the problem is, Bill, that they're asking him to do something -- they're asking him to thread a needle that's almost impossible to thread. They are asking him not to be the nasty Bill- Press-type person that he looked like in the first debate, but at the same time, not to be the dull clod that he was in the second debate. They want him to be on the attack, but still nice.

Well, all George W. Bush is being asked to do is to be himself. That's good enough. So the bar is pretty high for Al Gore tonight. He made it clear that he's -- he's a pretty smart guy. But the demands on him are very high, because -- Bill, I hate to tell you this -- he's behind in the polls.

PRESS: Bob, Bob...

NOVAK: And he would be -- he would lose the election if it were held today.

PRESS: Bob, those polls show that everything is really tight. Listen, Al Gore has been over in a -- over a thousand town halls, Bob. It's not a tough job tonight. All Al Gore has to be is Al Gore.

NOVAK: What is Al Gore?

PRESS: If Al Gore is Al Gore -- if Al is the Al Gore that will go after George Bush's record and defend his own record and not back down and not try to be nice, he will score.

NOVAK: Is he mean -- is he mean like you or nice like me?

PRESS: From -- from the left, Bob, good night for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, in St. Louis, good night for CROSSFIRE. And join us next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.

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