Random: Store Shelves Appear To Be Filling With Pre-Owned Copies Of Star Fox Zero

When I saw the vote is 100% "No, I've still got the game and will hold onto it for now", my faith in Humanity was restored a bit.

And I will be buying one of those second hand copies. The game was just too divisive for me to pay full price for it. Now if only there had been a demo for me to try for myself beforehand...

I rarely trade in Nintendo first party games. The last one I sold was Sticker Star.

I wish there was an option saying "No, I've still got the game and I don't plan on getting rid of it."

I voted "I haven't got it yet, but still plan to pick it up"

I figure even if I struggle with the controls playing solo, I can enjoy multiplayer with my wife.

Why is this news?

@Shiryu that, or you realized you were on a Nintendo fan site.

Crap game is crap. And the masses have spoken.

@Vee_Flames I think due to the sheer amount of copies that are being traded in, in comparison to how poorly it sold to begin with.

Would it have killed Nintendo to include an online multiplayer mode for longevity's sake? Or did Splatoon fill up their 'online capable' quota for the decade?

@Shiryu how is that vote holding up?

I voted under "I gave up"

@gatorboi352 "Masses"

Well the only sad thing is ill pick it up used as opposed to new now I guess. Got to save where ever I can.

@vitalemrecords Still ahead, which makes sense to me.

@gatorboi352 To each it's own, brother. ¯(ツ)/¯ And do remember that might does not make right, it just means more people making more noise. I am very happy to have lived to witness "Star Fox Zero" become a reality and even more, been around long enought to see the series grow right from the start.

Unfortunately this is not entirely unexpected. I personally love the game but I can't deny on its berevity. The truth is many gamers aren't score chasers or secret hunters and if they honestly feel they are unlikely to play it again, they'll trade it in soon for maximum credit towards future purchases.

Although it wouldn't have influenced me as I don't play such modes, the lack of at least a basic online multiplayer was a serious faux pas on Nintendo's part as that would have given the game some legs for people to play more.

The lack of a demo didn't help either to help those on the fence decide. Even if undecided, few will drop 30-40 squids without knowing if they'd like it.

And yes, there will be those who just didn't like it, there always is with every game. How many of those who traded it in for such a reason remains an unknown.

This happens with almost any game after about a month or so. I remember going into Entertainment Exchange and seeing loads and loads of the Division about 2 weeks after release.

this is much worse than with other games. otherwise it wouldn't be a story

Cheaper to buy it new than to get it 2nd hand from CEX, no wonder the shelf is filling up

Oh this story won't please some people here. I'm surprised there's even any secondhand copies to sell. It was gone from the charts after only a couple of weeks and didn't sell well by all accounts.

Maybe a decent online multiplayer would have helped.

Game seems to be mediocre at best and longevity wise is very short.

They really could have made it much better instead of rushing it.

wow!! that means the game will be pretty cheap soon. I wasn't convinced by the gameplay, but if the price is low enough on a used copy, I might give it a try.

i will be one of those who will never trade it in. I hardly do that with any of my games. Even the ones I don't really care for. I haven't played it yet but I will be keeping it forever

Shame, really. I've got it, bought it because my wife is a big Star Fox fan, and haven't had the time to play co-op with her. Do you think the co-op experience is better, offsetting the gyro controls to a second player?

I, personally, loved Starfox Zero. I wasn't a big fan of the controls, but the controls on Perfect Dark and Goldeneye are kind of rubbish, too, given the N64's lack of a second control stick, but I still ADORE those games. If a game is good enough, unusual control schemes won't kill it IMO.

@Pokefanmum82 Same here. As a collector, I never get rid of any of my games unless I have duplicates (which I usually trade for games that aren't in my collection yet).

@Damo I was hoping an article about this would appear as I saw the same for myself when I went to CeX 10 days ago. The Wii U section was sadly literally filled with Star Fox Zero.

@Vee_Flames "Why is this news?"

That's your why.

Mission Incomplete.

Ah well this just means that when Christmas comes around it will be even cheaper to buy

I own First Print Edition with physical disc on Guard too, and will keep onto it forever.
I never traded in any game ever.

@FragRed indeed happens with every game. More anecdotal accounts here, but every gamestop in my area has used copies of of the highly rated Uncharted 4. and that game has been out hardly two weeks.

Concerning Star Fox Zero. It's hardly surprising. It was a very divisive game from first showing. I'd imagine some people couldn't get a grip on the controls. Others, since the game was so short, got everything they could out of it in short order. Me?personally I own it digitally and physically and as I rarely trade in games, I've no intention of doing so this occasion. I particularly enjoy the game. As a matter of fact, with a little polish and some added features like online, I hope the same control scheme is retained if they make another one for the NX (with the option of standard controls for the faint of heart).

Will own forever. My whole family adores this game. My five year-old daughter even claims its her favorite. This is a girl who has played Animal Crossing and Nintendogs since she could pick up a DS.

I have it. Not gonna get rid of it yet, but the controls DO suck. Should've left the new control system as default and a classic control setup as an unlockable option if you died too many times. They did the same thing with Other M. Shoehorned in a new way to play, when the old way already perfected it.

Can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that the Wii U is clearly coming to the end of its lifecycle has made me think that now is about the right time to be selling off any games that I don't want to hold onto.

It's a very good game, so I will never trade the game. Really wish the game was longer, but otherwise it's great.

I've bought this, but haven't yet got round to trying it. I've been meaning to on a bit of a Xenoblade binge recently.

Why am I not surprised.

I wouldn't trade it in, but can't face getting back to playing SFZ. I managed to get a handle on the controls after an hour or two of playing, but it's an incredibly dull and uninspired game and going back for high scores is not an incentive. My problem is with the content... or lack of it 😕

It's the motion controls, I have no interest in trying to tangle with those.

Does anyone know of all copies include star fox guard or just 1st run copy's. And is it download or in disk

@ElkinFencer10 That's a totally stupid comment about GoldenEye's and Perfect Dark's controls in relation to Star Fox Zero's controls: At the time of the N64 era there basically wasn't a better way to play fps games on Nintendo's consoles (or most other consoles for that matter; and Sony just ripped off Nintendo and added an extra stick), so this was basically as good as it got (most people were blown away being able to even play proper fps games at all on consoles at the time). In 2016, the Star Fox Zero controls are not even close to being as good as they could get. It's simply not the same thing, and it's a **** argument to try and use to defend Star Fox Zero's controls.

@crimsontadpoles

"I've been meaning to"

The story of my life when it comes to video games nowadays.

Welp.
This is not looking good for Fox and company.

A single-player game being traded in quick? Say it isn't so. I remember Mass Effect 2 had a quick trade-in rate and that is freaking Mass Effect!!!

Oh good. I was on the fence, but it looks like I can get the game cheaper this way. I saw a few predictions on forums elsewhere a few weeks ago that this would happen, and sure enough...

@Kirk Someone's tempermental. I had no idea that saying I liked a game and using an analogy you didn't like was such a grievous insult. Forgive me, your highness.

@Yorumi It's almost like those games were made from the ground-up with multiplayer in mind while Star Fax Zero was designed to be a primarily single player experience.

I wonder if this is the same way in NA? Gamestops in my area got low to no stocks of them used and on the site. That and according to Vgchartz (not to be taken too serious) more were sold in NA than the others combined. http://www.vgchartz.com/game/82964/star-fox-zero/

Well I got my digital and still enjoy playing it, bit more so then I did with Star fox 64 (don't hurt me). I can understand why other would trade it in, at least they give it a shot playing it.

@SLIGEACH_EIRE I think this story would please more people here than displease

@GeminiSaint
Yeah, which is really unfortunate if we're to see another Star Fox game in awhile if ever. Which is really sad because there's potential in this series to be something utterly fantastic. But when they (what seems to be) rush the game out when it should have more content like more branching paths, unlockables, etc., they'll look at the sales and may give up on it. I personally enjoy the game. Controls were somewhat of a hurdle, but I feel better after some time with it.

But when it comes down to it, shooting for high scores anymore as your one and only novelty for replay-ability, isn't my cup of tea. It worked with the N64 game, but for this one, it just feels somewhat empty.

The game is not that bad. Sheeeeesh!

I just had a look at the Irish CEX site and sure enough they've loads of copies too.

https://ie.webuy.com/product.php?sku=045496334840#.V0XN4ePhTQ8

They've some neck charging €50 secondhand when it can be bought new for €32 delivered. And the fact that it's that cheap after a couple of weeks speaks volumes. They should have added multiplayer to give it longevity. There's no real reason to replay it as it is. If you like getting high scores, good for you, but for me, no thanks.

Too bad, they're missing one of the best games ever released for the system.

So people who said you have to try it to like it were... wrong? Call of Duty is a yearly game but a classic Star Fox game is something you don't see everyday. Actually, last one was Star Fox 64 (1997). It is astonishing how Nintendo is handling their most important franchises since Wii era.

used games are reshrinkwrapped in japan?

@yorumi
I can see that. I need to put more time into star fox guard now. But I'm not sure I'll get that much enjoyment out of it.

@VanillaLake "So people who said you have to try it to like it were... wrong?"

Not entirely? I'm sure there's some people who picked it up to try it and actually like it.

I'm not convinced that the copies in CEX in the UK are used anyway. I have never seen that many copies of any Wii U game in any CEX store and why aren't there loads in Game stores too? More likely they are new copies that CEX managed to source on the cheap because the game and Wii U is a flop in the UK.

I don't think I'll sell it but on the other hand it doesn't bode well that I played it only on its first weekend and haven't had any desire to play it again since. I enjoyed the motion control aiming mechanism but the all-range/target mode just felt unnecessarily clunky, inaccurate and almost broken. Makes me sad.

Holy cow that's terrible. I didn't think it was going to be this bad, I've seen a few used copies but XCX was worse around these parts. A week or two later there was 20 copies everywhere but nobody reported on that haha. I didnt sell XCX, and I still kind of want StarFox, and I'd probably pick up the easy to find bundle thing with SF Guard in it since that still interests me. Unless it's all in one disk so I can get the used version? Though I dont think so.

Meh, Star Fox games are always short and the "average Joe" trades in games after seeing the credits roll. No surprises here.

(Also why I wasn't willing to pay full price. This game will be marked down before long - or available for much less on the second-hand market.)

@ElkinFencer10 Star Fox Zero bugs me, and all its defenders bug me. lol

Not surprised. The controls ruin the game.

@ElkinFencer10 Your analogy/comparison with Golden Eye doesn't make any sense.

Controls have been good and very doable for myself along with the 3 other people in my family who have tried it. I've loved it. Sounds like alot of people gave up too early, or was convinced it sucked by readinf internet comments before too much. Along with a few thay honestly may have not liked it. It's a bif shame since it was a good game. Nintendo may let it die now.

@ultraraichu That, or that there's nothing to talk about Nintendo until spring next year.

Star Fox 64 is all over shelves, too. It doesn't matter how good the control scheme is, the game is short, and people just don't keep games like they used to. Once they've finished the story, they trade it in. That's just the way it goes.

I traded my copy in. I just couldn't figure out the controls. It was like, push up to go forward and push down to brake? What?? How does that make sense? And they expected me to use two sticks and I had to pay attention to the screen or else I'd die. I also couldn't figure out how to use two screens at once without looking up and down so frantically and so often that I got dizzy and passed out.

The game also didn't tell me when to go to the bathroom so I had a lot of accidents in my pants.

Poor design! 3/10!

@InternetBowser: Absolutely!
And that's the beauty about digital downloads - you can't give them back. People should think about their choices before making them and then stick to them. Why would you sell a used game anyway? It's not worth it (money-wise).
I voted for "I have the download version, so I can't trade it in either way", but I wouldn't even have traded it in if I could. The only game I regret buying is Child of Light and that was my own fault because I didn't research it enough to know that it's turn-based.

I have never sold a game nor will I ever do so. I am too much of a Collector to sell games I have been done for for years.

@VanillaLake I think it's due to a number of things. The biggest being a certain mystery console Nintendo refuses to talk about known as NX that is supposedly releasing in March 2017.

@InternetBowser

Well said.

That's what always gets me about everyone wanting the Wii U to die and calling it a failure and saying the gamepad was stupid and whatever.

Without the gamepad, we would not have had Mario Maker. Game creation engines offered by something like Little Big Planet have absolutely nothing on Mario Maker. That game ALONE justifies the existence of the Wii U.

Long story short, it's NX's fault

The stupidest part of this is the price CEX are charging for pre-owned copies. You've been able to get easily for £26 since pre-orders went up, and in the last few weeks some retailers have been selling it for £22.

The die hards on here won't feel the same, but you can see by the average review score, most people don't think it's a good game at all. The sad part is, that's almost the norm for Star Fox these days. 69 metacritic, following on from the 67 for Star Fox Assault. It's been a long, long time since Star Fox was a top tier game series.

I hope it's just a lack of effort because they know nothing is going to sell big or move hardware, because it was worrying how often games like this are showing up from Nintendo. There's been plenty of articles on how 2015 averaged the worst ever review scores for Nintendo games.

This game is fabulous! I'm never selling my copy!
I'm with @Shiryu on this!

Yeah because popular opinion is ALWAYS a clear scale of how good a game is...Yes internet, that was sarcasm. Look the game isn't mind blowing, its simply a good game. That doesn't seem to be enough for many. The trouble is, in 1997 when starfox 64 came out, there wasn't many action games as frenetic or action packed as starfox. Jump to 2016 and store shelfs are full to the brim with epic shooters, space sims, star wars licensed products and enough sci fi to be happy for a life time. So ofcourse the shine of a new starfox game is not going to be as shiny as many people expected. But it IS a good game. Not the best game ever made or game of the year, but a good, competent and thoroughly entertaining wii u game.

I'm not really surprised. Even aside from the controversial controls, there's not much to the game (as I understand it; I haven't gotten it yet myself). The campaign's short, and there's no online multiplayer to keep you playing. If you're the type of person to beat games and trade them in, there's no reason not to do so quickly with Star Fox, while the value is still high.

@Peach64
To be fair, Nintendo released very few games last year, so even a couple terrible games would affect the average much more than usual. Mario Maker, Splatoon, and Xenoblade can only raise it so much with weights like Amiibo Festival and Devil's Third dragging it down.

I enjoy the game, but it could have been so so much better if they would have made other design choices.

Miyamoto is really bothering me the last decade.

@Marshi

That's such a huge issue with this game. The detractors don't seem to understand that there IS a gray area.

To them, the game is either "best Star Fox game ever in every way" or it's total garbage.

When really, it has its faults just like any other game. But it is a perfectly good addition to the Wii U library.

I didn't buy the game, but played through the entire campaign at a local game center one evening last week.

For a game that takes roughly 3 hours to complete (not including replays for new routes/objectives), they really overdid it on the number of control schemes they throw at the player. The arwing controls decently enough during the on-rails segments. But the primary vehicles (of which there are 5) have 3 separate camera systems (standard, cockpit, target mode) that adversely impact gameplay (not just point-of-view, but there are things which can literally only be accounted for in certain camera modes, such as enemy shadow placements and color changes). Then there's also the little robot that the gyrocopter deploys. If you average out the 16 different control modes across the 3 hour completion time, that's a new control scheme roughly every 11 minutes (it doesn't actually split evenly like that in terms of gameplay, but still).

It seems like they tried to do too much to "innovate", in relation to the length of the game. The lack of multi-player doesn't help matters.

So it sucks, then?

I haven't heard anyone say it's a cast-iron classic, and I only pay full-price for those. I'll give it a go when it's around the £20 mark for a new copy. From the looks of it this is more likely to go down the Mario Tennis route than the Mario 3D World as far as shop prices are concerned.

That's a shame, I got my copy today, and it's not that bad...

Maybe Nintendo should've kept to the original controls. I don't mind these new controls too much, but I think using Lylat Wars/StarFox 64 controls would've been better IMO.

Very few people have said that the game is 100% rubbish. Most of the "negative" comments are "mixed", while most of the "positive" comments state that the game is near perfection or are sarcastic and insult people that don't like the controls. This can be seen here and on any other website.

It's sad that Nintendo apparently doesn't make any big effort for their fans for around 2 years now when the console was about 2 years old. It's sad that Nintendo consider that the people that supported them and believed in them from the start don't deserve better. While it's amazing how some people still stand up for them whatever they do, the reality is that most Nintendo fans are disappointed with Nintendo. Numbers don't lie.

Bought it, unwrapped it and project guard, played for 10 mins to see what the fuss about with controls, didn't get on with it in that short time so put it with the backlog. So many good games on the Wii U I need to finish if my 3DS didn't keep distracting me with its RPGs.

@SLIGEACH_EIRE .....hence why this is a story to begin with. It sold like crap AND is being traded back in at an alarming rate.

Even more concerning is that, the typical Wii U owner is most likely a die hard Nintendo fan and probably willing to deal/really enjoy pretty much anything out on the system. So for Wii U owners, of all console owners, to be returning a 1st party beloved Nintendo franchise's latest offering at this rate is quite the story.

@VanillaLake

"It's sad that Nintendo apparently doesn't make any big effort for their customers for around 2 years now when the console was about 2 years old. It's sad that Nintendo consider that the people that supported them and believed in them from the start don't deserve better. "

Regardless of people's opinions regarding Zero, Nintendo set out to make a fun game with stimulating gameplay. What would you suggest they do? Like what is a big effort in your eyes? 40-80 hour open world games? I don't understand your comment.

@Turbo857 I mean all the spin-off, mediocre and scarce games that they have been releasing for the last few years. Haven't you noticed or what?

@VanillaLake exactly... I have wiiU almost since launch. At the beginning I bought almost all first party games and also third ones I was interested too. At the end of 2014 i got more than 15 retail games (plus some eshops). Since then the only WiiU game I bought has been Xenoblade Chronicles. Coincidence? I would say not, it was just that nothing interesting came out for me, only rushed games or party ones, amiibo mayhem, remasters and almost nothing else....not to talk about third party games.

Also, instead of tons of crap, they could have ported some good 3ds games on WiiU... Same dual screen concept. I would love a fire emblem on big screen instead of this gimmicky amibo fair

...is no one else old enough to remember when this same thing happened (maybe to a slightly lesser degree admittedly) with Star Fox 64? I remember it was going for pretty cheap back in the N64 days since there were so many used copies.

People would play through the game once and trade it in, not bothering with medals, alternate paths or other extras. That's what happens with Star Fox games since the "initial playthrough" can be beaten within hours.

I'll admit this wasn't as well documented with 64 since the Internet wasn't what it was today but I would think people who were gaming back then would have realized this since the copies were everywhere.

@arnoldlayne83 Same here, about 90% of my Wii U collection was bought within the first two years. I wouldn't trade my Wii U because of some exclusive games I have purchased and definitely love, but Nintendo let me down / let us down as Wii U supporters very soon, when the console was around 2 years old - sounds like a joke but it's what they have done really.

@Yorumi 104# yes, all good ideas...

Also what about multiplayer arenas where all the vehicles fight together (a la Battlefield?).

They could have made so much better, considering how much it took to work on this cluncky controls

@VanillaLake

I don't understand your opinion about Nintendo putting "no effort" into the Wii U's library.

People are so quick to point out that 3rd party developers refuse to release games on the Wii U, but then they fail to realize that this means the onus is almost solely on NIntendo's shoulders to create, produce and release their OWN games on their own system. And yet we have had some excellent original titles released on the Wii U.

Splatoon, Mario Kart 8, Mario Maker, Zelda U (it's been in development for quite some time so it counts), Smash Bros, Pikmin 3, Star Fox Zero, Yoshi's Wooly World, Super Mario 3D World, New Super Mario Bros U, Xenoblade Chronicles X.

Not too bad for having to do everything on their own because they don't have all of the other studios cranking out their yearly filler titles to pad the library.

I was interested in this game and as a fan of Skyward Sword and Splatoon's motion controls I don't think I'd have any trouble with Star Fox Zero. Only reason I hadn't gotten it yet is because I only buy full price games if I have to have it immediately, preferring to wait for either sales or cheap used copies. Honestly if everyone hates this game and the price drops significantly before I buy it, I mean we take those.

@Yorumi Thanks for explaining that for me.

What @yorumi said.

It's 2016, folks. I'm fine with the game "being in the same vein" as SF64, but let's build on that. A $50 game should have more legs to it than this rather than just "ooo look at my score"

I almost feel this game would benefit from some decent DLC. But it's probably much too late.

@sonicmeerkat
I find that to be weird, too. Could those be new copies? Or could that depend on the store?

@Vandy yes, there are true gems indeed.

But look how many of them has been release prior january 2015 and how many after....

The controls infuriate me
But trading in a Nintendo 1st party game is lunacy

Definitely could have done with at least one vaguely positive sounding option. "I will hold onto it... for now" sounds a bit non-committal.

@arnoldlayne83

Do we need blockbuster titles every year, though? I mean, I think that three a year is perfectly suitable as long as there is enough replay value in them. Smash Bros, Splatoon, Mario Kart and Mario Maker alone provide that. As would XCX for those who are into it.

Aside from that, there are other great games like Kirby: Rainbow Curse, Rayman Legends, LOZ: Twilight Princess, etc.

There isn't the mass volume of games like there is on PS4 and/or Xbox One, but there is absolutely enough to keep a gamer busy with Wii U.

Again, Nintendo is largely developing all of these on their own, so I don't think it's a matter of them "not caring enough" or "not putting in an effort". Blame the lazy 3rd party devs.

@Vandy This is the first time you talk to me respectfully so thank you for that. My list would be different, of course it would not include Star Fox Zero but I would add Tropical Freeze and Maiden of Black Water.

What you are explaining about Nintendo having the onus is the key here. If Nintendo can't handle hardware and software at the same time, probably they should focus on multiplatform software, and I don't mean Android/iOS as multiplatform because I am (like all people here) a traditional player, so they should go for the real thing (PS/Xbox). It's obvious that they are not doing well with Wii U and the console supporters are paying the price after having already paid around €350 at launch.

@ManInTheChair ikr

"I have the physical edition, but cannot trade it in because it has somehow become stuck to my face with super glue"

honestly
i like it more than any other wii u game sans miiverse

@Stu13 If you haven't yet, I'd recommend taking a look at your local library. I just rented it there today, and will be making up my own mind before I buy. I was surprised to see that the library system near me pretty much took over when Blockbuster died.

@VanillaLake

I forgot Tropical Freeze, myself.

But again, I don't necessarily think Nintendo deserves all of the blame. They are clearly trying to do different things. Not everything will work. But it's not like they just abandoned the Wii U one year after launch or immediately after 3rd party devs had a tantrum and ran away. I know I may come across that way sometimes, but I am certainly not a blindly loyal Nintendo fanboy. I own every system. But I think it's absurd that Nintendo is getting so much flak for "making the Wii U hard to develop on".

There are a lot of indy developers who have managed to make it work. Shovel Knight is an amazing game and it works just fine on Wii U. Then you've got idiots like the guy who developed Binding of Isaac throwing his little fit about how it's "too hard" to develop on the Wii U and it's "not powerful enough" for his little flash game, but then he goes on and releases a Wii U version anyway within a few months. Why was that so hard but Shovel Knight wasn't? SK is an infinitely deeper and better game.

No one seemed to have pointed out the hypocrisy of that as much as they blamed Nintendo for making things "too difficult". Devs, much like a lot of gamers these days, have become pretty lazy. If they have to take a bit of time to learn something, they write it off.

@Project_Dolphin I think you mean myself, so I reply.

Because, as @Tasuki has explained, it doesn't make much sense to keep a FIFA game if the newer one is exactly the same but updated. About Call of Duty, it's not that obvious but, anyway, when was the last time that a classic Star Fox game was released? 1997. Call of Duty games are released every year. As @gatorboi352 properly explained, "the typical Wii U owner is most likely a die hard Nintendo fan and probably willing to deal/really enjoy pretty much anything out on the system. So for Wii U owners, of all console owners, to be returning a 1st party beloved Nintendo franchise's latest offering at this rate is quite a story".

I would have never ever trade my Twilight Princess copy before the HD version was released, to give you an example.

No surprises there as it's ridiculously short.
I liked it though a lot, felt a bit fobbed off paying full price though.
Lacked content for sure.

@Turbo857 "What would you suggest they do? Like what is a big effort in your eyes? 40-80 hour open world games? I don't understand your comment."

Uh, how about even a semblance of an online component? It's freaking 2016 last I checked.

You know, there's a very good reason, hell, reasons why Nintendo is in dead last any more. They've lost touch with the modern gaming industry and have reverted into a total niche corner, save for their Pokemon success.

@gatorboi352

@Turbo857 has a point though.

How many games are artificially extended by useless fetch quests? And side missions that ultimately result in glorified time trials and endless back-tracking?

What's wrong with a tight, action-packed, focused campaign?

Same goes for the whole online thing. Why does EVERY game need an online component shoe-horned in?

It'll be great value at CeX soon enough!

@Vandy Why would online and more multiplayer options or alternate paths be shoe-horned in a Star Fox game? You said "EVERY (game)" but what about "HOW MANY (games)"?

@Vandy

Yes, we do need blockbuster titles every year. Nintendo does if it wants to compete. Playstation has had about 4 already this year. Nintendo's had none so far.

@Vandy Well, based on feedback from people having actually bought and played SFZ, it sounds like this one could have used just that.

Almost every report on SFZ, even the positive ones, all indicate some form of "wish it were longer though" or "wish I had more to do" or "wish there was some multiplayer or online".

Sounds right! Everyone I knew who wanted this after e3 dropped that idea once they could not turnoff motion controls and it had no online dog fights!

@Lord - Don't think this is the first time you've triggered the profanity filter. Please remember to consider the community rules before posting. Thanks.

@Dezzy

You seem to have missed the rest of my point as well.

Why are we so quick to blame Nintendo when they are already developing these titles all on their own? Sony and Microsoft aren't developing their own blockbuster titles. These are done by all of the 3rd part studios supporting them, which Nintendo doesn't have. So to expect a blockbuster title from Nintendo every single year is absurd.

Nintendo's doing pretty damn well on their own. Blame the 3rd part devs.

@gatorboi352

Opinions. I felt it was an appropriate length because it's a game that focuses on challenges, achievements and medals. That's where your replay value comes in for an arcade-style shooter.

@VanillaLake

I don't actually understand your most recent post.

@gatorboi352 "You know, there's a very good reason, hell, reasons why Nintendo is in dead last any more". That reminds me, kudos to Nintendo Life for scandalising us once again with a derivative topic!

@VanillaLake

Being a life long Nintendo fan I've learned that if you're a hardcore gamer, Nintendo home consoles should never be the only console you own. I can't hate on Nintendo too much because as a fan, I know they are a company that does its own thing and has already offered a bunch of great hits for the Wii U already. And as a fan, I also know that Nintendo is a company that learns from its mistakes. I still play Smash Bros. virtually every weekend, as well as Mario Kart 8. But those two games alone should prove how much Nintendo cares about its fans. Every company releases a few duds here and there but Nintendo has a pretty stellar record with releasing quality games.

Yeah, the Wii U's releases have been sparse in 2016 and will be that way til the new console. They gambled with the Wii U and took huge losses as a result. So, they are now in a transition period, probably the biggest transition of their history. So, you can either continue to buy their products or take your hard earned cash elsewhere. But sayin' they don't care about their customers, is a bit over-dramatic wouldn't ya say?

To get this outta the way, I bought the digital version of Zero for $50 and I felt I got my $'s worth. @Yorumi's suggestions for alternative modes and scenario's would've been great but I judge games by what they offered at retail, not by what I wish they should've had. But that's me.

@gatorboi352

Yeah, an online leader-board would've been appreciated. But ya know for $50 I got a campaign mode, arcade mode, challenge modes, etc. Maybe I'm a glass is half-full kinda guy... I dunno. Multiplayer vs modes were fun in previous Star Fox games and I'd welcome a return of that feature in the future. But I don't buy Star Fox for its multiplayer options just like I don't buy Smash Bros. for its single player campaign and story modes. Zeros got 20 missions that are all a blast to play so... I got my hands full with just that.

I have not played it and don't intend to. The controls are what put me off.

NL I feel were less than honest with their review in so much as, saying once you get use to the control system thing will be ok. Instead of saying Nintendo made another mistake.

Once a game is bought as a physical copy the gamer either has to persists with the controls or trade the game. It seems that a lot of gamers were not willing to persist.

If you downloaded it you're snookered.

@Turbo857

You make a great point about not buying Star Fox for the multiplayer and not buying Smash Bros for the single player.

Me, personally? I really enjoyed Subspace Emissary and actually had a better time playing single player on Brawl than I did multiplayer.

So when I found out Smash Bros Wii U was heavily multiplayer and removed almost all of the worthwhile single player elements, did I dismiss it as a terrible game where Nintendo "failed everyone" and it now sucked because it should have had features I believed it should have?

No, I appreciated the game for what it was. I haven't gotten as much play out of it because I'm not crazy about the online competitive component of the game and am more of a couch-party gamer with friends, but that certainly doesn't mean it wasn't worth the money I paid for it at release.

@Vandy My bad, it was a bit too poetic and short.

You wrote "How many games are artificially extended by useless fetch quests? And side missions that ultimately result in glorified time trials and endless back-tracking?
What's wrong with a tight, action-packed, focused campaign?
Same goes for the whole online thing. Why does EVERY game need an online component shoe-horned in?"

My answer is: HOW MANY online Wii U games are there?

About the content, I think people are not asking for a 80 hours campaign, they want more paths, more modes, probably prequel characters as @Yorumi suggested, proper multiplayer mode, online, etc., not to mention the controls controversy.

@Project_Dolphin

You make some very good points.

"When will you realize that you just don't like Nintendo video games anymore? There's no point at gettng angry at a zebra because he doesn't change his stripes."

The same attitude is reflected with the whole Star Fox Zero debacle.

"I'm a huge Star Fox fan and I love Star Fox games but they've sucked since Star Fox 64".

We're now FIVE games beyond Star Fox 64. That means you really only like TWO Star Fox games from the series. So perhaps you just need to admit that while you find the idea of the series interesting, you just aren't a fan of the series.

@cfgk24 Preach!

I just picked up the latest "Retro Gamer" and they also gave the game a solid 8 out of 10. I believe this is just the beginning of an ever expanding gap between gamer who grew up with older systems and gamers who where born with newer generations of hardware. It is the only way I can perceive such disperse reviews about the whole experience.

@Shiryu Personally my choice is not listed. I am happy to keep my copy as I seriously love my Nintendo games.

@gatorboi352 nice of you to comment negatively three times in a row

@VanillaLake

In my opinion, there are far too many games that are online ONLY multiplayer and not enough couch co-op or couch multiplayer.

I don't care about online gaming, to be perfectly honest. I have enough friends in real life to have them over and play couch-multi. Why don't games cater to this attitude anymore? Why is it largely just Nintendo delivering this, but no one seems to praise them for it?

Further to it, what's wrong with focusing on creating an excellent single-player experience in favor of devoting time and resources to an ultimately unnecessary multiplayer experience? While I won't disagree with the idea that Star Fox multiplayer would be fun, I also don't think many other Wii U games would have benefitted from an online component.

The Arkham games gave the same kind of answer when people criticized them for not having an online multiplayer component. "Why? That's not the game we wanted to make".

@Turbo857 If you think that complaining about drying the well two years later after having paid €350 is too dramatic then you won't understand a huge amount of opinions. I don't hate Nintendo either, I'm just telling what they're doing.

@zool

Dude, if you're put off by a game because of what you read or head about the controls... that's fine and that's your decision. But accusing a publication about being dishonest in their review (of a game they played and you didn't mind you), is a bit ridiculous. That statement is almost implying that you just don't want to accept that there are people who really like this game or that the people who like this game are liars.... which is a bit arrogant.

@Project_Dolphin But I do like Nintendo.

@Vandy

Lol, yeah I liked the Subspace Emissary a lot actually. I was disappointed Smash Wii U didn't have a similar mode but it was no way a deal-breaker. Smash Wii U offered a hell of a lotta content, so much that I may never unlock everything for years to come.

@Turbo857

Yeah, if someone is going to complain about Star Fox Zero leaving out the multiplayer mode, then they should be equally as annoyed with Smash Bros Wii U leaving out any sort of worthwhile single player mode.

But they won't because it's cooler to hate SFZ and no one will agree with them about Smash.

And also because they don't care about it, that means everyone has the same opinion.

I can't believe ppl consider great games as disposable. It reminds me the "download and dump" attitudes of the past. They just rip through everything.

@Vandy "Further to it, what's wrong with focusing on creating an excellent single-player experience in favor of devoting time and resources to an ultimately unnecessary multiplayer experience?"

The problem is that Nintendo/Platinum did not focus on an excellent single-player experience either.

I also prefer couch multiplayer as you mentioned before, because it's very difficult to find good online friends. I do not really appreciate random online play with random people, there is where you find the real trolls, not here. However, one of the games I've enjoyed the most in my whole life is Monster Hunter 3 (Wii) and 99% of the reason was the online experience. Online is very important nowadays, no matter how many trolls you can find out there, there are also lovely people and some games just need it.

got it, love it, will keep it forever.

@Turbo857 @Vandy Well, for me the lack of a proper single player experience in Super Smash Bros. 4 was a deal-breaker. Also, the excessive amount of (expensive) DLC.

@VanillaLake

But there are also countless games that truly don't need multiplayer.

And I do truly feel that Star Fox did not NEED one. It would have been cool, sure, but I still feel the single player experience offers enough. Especially if you're going for medals and challenges. Because at its core, Star Fox is an arcade-style shooter. And they gave us a co-op mode to enjoy locally with a friend anyway.

So again, it just comes down to opinion.

I am quite happy with Nintendo being the best place to find quality, unique titles and excellent single-player (and couch co-op/competitive) experiences. At least they have a niche, whereas Sony and Microsoft are the same company with a different coat of paint.

I bought the first print edition - and like with so many games I didnt have time to try it out...

@TrueWiiMaster Splatoon's initial reviews were in the 6-7 range too. Not sure how many places did a re-review. Does Metacritic even replace the original score with the re-review score?

@gatorboi352 (replying to comment #8)

>Masses
>Wii U owners

Take your pick

@VanillaLake

Nah, dude I hear ya. I bought a Sega Saturn and Dreamcast. I don't regret my purchases of those consoles either but I understand your pain. But the Wii U's got some great hits. This is the company that funded development for Bayonetta 2 afterall. Fortunately, Nintendo manages money much better than Sega.

I'm not in anyway trying to say Nintendo is perfect or above criticism. But your complaints are due to the result of owning a console with virtually no third party support. The well's been drying my friend because they've basically been a one man show.

"Well, for me the lack of a proper single player experience in Super Smash Bros. 4 was a deal-breaker. Also, the excessive amount of (expensive) DLC."

Damn, no comment on that one

It's time that CeX got realistic with their pricing. Most WiiU games are more expensive there than brand new from online stores. I picked up quite a few GameCube and Wii games from there late in those consoles cycles, but have got anything from them in the last couple of years. They've over expanded and are poor value for money, preferring to sell old mobile phones rather than exchanging games.

Some of those trade-ins could very well be gamers who've 100% it and just don't feel the need to ever replay it. (plus the absence multiplayer doesn't help)

Anyway, as a long time Star Fox fan, I don't regret my purchase one bit! I quite enjoy it. Its got a strong enough single player/co-op that I'll be keeping it.

Now I just need a few more medals left until I've completed everything.

I can only speak for myself: I love the game. And since everyone's insisting on being negative about it, I'll just say it: I enjoyed it more than any recent replay I've done of Star Fox 64 or the 3D remake; the controls make it feel fresh instead of stale. It's actually good, and aside of "It haz moshun cuntrols, so itz wurst evar!!!! Lulz! I never played it, but someone told me so!" I don't know how everyone is so sure it sucks or why it's faced such a pronounced uphill battle.

Also, why wouldn't you sell your games on eBay? Good god. If you're going to ditch a game this close to launch, you can get back $50 or so online, or the $20 you might be lucky to game at GameStop. I don't even see how that's a choice. Makes it hard for me to take the opinions of these people seriously since the very presence of these games on used game racks indicates these people are either idiots or children, and I'm not especially bothered by the opinions of either.

Edit: For the record, all the hate piled onto the game almost made me cancel my Amazon order before it shipped. So I'm not a delusional fan who was going to love the game regardless, since every title has a few of those from oblivious franchise fanboys. I went in nothing shy of terrified I would hate it and need to offload it online ASAP to get my money back, like we're seeing here. I'm thrilled about how wrong I was, and I'm not a delusional fanboy. Give the game a try if you're interested.

@Turbo857 "Damn, no comment on that one".

Yeah, I know, this game is sacred for many people... I prefer Killer Instinct 3 or Street Fighter V any day.

About the rest of your comment, I don't mean the third party support. Even before the Wii U was released I was expecting just a few 360/PS3 ports and nothing more, some people called me pessimist back then but that was exactly what happened. I mean that Nintendo has disappointed me as a first party in the last few years. Of course, I wouldn't trade my Wii U because, as I explained before, there are some exclusive games I love, but 90% of them were released in the first two years of its life. I could have waited for NX and the hypothetical Wii U ports, probably.

@MarioPhD

A very important point to highlight.

If you're not smart enough to realize that you're always ripped off when you trade in a game, then I don't have a lot of confidence in your ability to understand Star Fox Zero's controls. So of course these people will hate the game.

@mariophd

For sure. I'm just in the category of "gamer who wants more!" Lol. The controls worked out to me, just wanna have more to do with some added planets. I'd really like more levels utilizing the gyrocopter.

@Yorumi

Nah, I can't really agree that Zero has less content than Star Fox 64. I still play 64 3D and I can beat it much quicker than Zero. 64's got 15 stages and Zero's got 20 so I dunno why people keep saying it's shorter.

@VanillaLake

Which first-party Nintendo titles disappointed you on the Wii U?

@InternetBowser "But most people regret losing their N64 for example." And that's why Xbox One + Rare Replay is heaven on earth.

@Vandy Wow, I made a list on here some time ago. The list is quite long because I also include 3DS games. To just list a few: Mario Tennis Open, Mario Tennis Ultra Smash, Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival, Animal Crossing Happy Home Designer, Paper Mario Sticker Star, Star Fox Zero, Mario Party 10, Nintendo Land, The Legend of Zelda Triforce Heroes, New Super Mario Bros 2... And the list was way longer...

@InternetBowser

Yeah, I'm actually STILL working through 00 Agent in Goldeneye because it's very challenging. It's not simply "run and run and run until you get to the next checkpoint". That's the kind of games we have these days, which lends to the lazy and entitled attitudes of today's gamer. Everything has to be super easy right off the bat and never punish you for doing something wrong. Infinite lives, infinite continues, constant hints on the screen, hour-long glorified tutorial levels disguised as "intro missions", etc.

"When will you realize that you just don't like Nintendo video games anymore? There's no point at gettng angry at a zebra because he doesn't change his stripes."

Eh, but that's just the thing. Nintendo has been changing their stripes, over and over, for the last 10-12 years. The Nintendo I grew up with had the SNES and N64 where I could play the latest and greatest Mario or Zelda, swap a cartridge and play the likes of FIFA, Madden, Quake 2 or Turok or Final Fantasy or (fill in the blank AAA 3rd party title). You get it?

That Nintendo is why we're all so pissed off now. The Nintendo of the Wii U is a complete joke in comparison. ZombiU was cool though.

@VanillaLake

I'm really only interested in hearing about the Wii U titles because those ones are relevant to this topic. So you were disappointed with Mario Tennis Ultra Smash, Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival, Mario Party 10, NSMB and Star Fox Zero.

I disagree with NSMB and Star Fox Zero completely, but can understand about the rest (even though I still somewhat agree on a couple of them). But that's still really not THAT bad of a track record when you compare those games to the amount of truly quality first-party games they delivered on the Wii U.

Even if you didn't LOVE them, there are still some other great games released beyond that "first two years" mark you are set with. They may not have been your cup of tea, but a lot of other people have enjoyed them.

I'm confused - that second photo is all new, sealed games. Also, my local CeX has lots of Uncharted 4 and Quantum Break copies but that doesn't necessarily mean they're bad games. It just seems to be the case that people trade in games nowadays once they've completed them, regardless of the quality, because it means they can get new games, especially as the price of games keeps increasing with each generation.

@gatorboi352 Not only that, but those Mario, Zelda and Metroid games were way better.

@gatorboi352

Meh, those are your opinions. I've been buying Nintendo consoles since the 1980s and I can't say that I have been disappointed by the Wii U. In fact, it's been one of my most favourite systems due to the diversity of the games and the experiences I've had.

@Vandy Not a chance recent Mario games are nearly as good as Super Mario World (2D) or Super Mario 64/Sunshine (3D) - visuals apart. Not a chance Skyward Sword to hold a candle to Twilight Princess (I have to go back to GC/Wii because the last Zelda game was released for GC/Wii). Not a chance recent Mario Tennis, Animal Crossing, Paper Mario and Mario Party games are near as good as the older ones. Not a chance Metroid Other M (back to last Metroid game again, no Metroid game on Wii U) or Metroid Force Generation can be compared to Metroid Prime trilogy (even though Force Generation has not been released yet, but we can see how it is shaping), etc.

Also missing Wii U Wave Race and F-Zero.

@VanillaLake I do rather hope you're aware of how intensely subjective everything you just said is, right? I personally like Skyward Sword more than any other 3D Zelda title without my nostalgia goggles on. That's just my opinion, but none of what you're saying about what holds candles to what is anything more than purely subjective... I assume you know that, but your statement suggests otherwise.

I don't if most of you enjoyed it or not but my own experience with the game was not good I wear glasses for seeing at a distance so I need them for watching the TV but I take them off when I'm using the gamepad so the game just caused headaches for me I didn't matter if I left them on or off it just caused headaches either way

@MarioPhD Oh my! When someone says this game is better, it can be assumed to be an opinion, and appending "I think" seems redundant then.

@Sanqet You know, that is an incredibly valid reason to hate the controls. That must suck. Sorry to hear that.

@VanillaLake ....... Okay? I completely disagree, then, but I nonetheless appreciate the condescension.

@MarioPhD For you I can change Skyward Sword for Triforce Heroes which is actually the last Zelda game.

Returned the game before finishing it, the slower part with the copter are ok but in the heat of the battles I felt like I didn't know where to look at, taking hit, missing ring and shots too confusing for me . I traded it for Twilight princess wich I've never played before. And I don't regret my move.

Is it me, or does it also feel like the game really needed a radar in 3D mode?

@VanillaLake

"Not a chance recent Mario games are nearly as good as Super Mario World (2D) or Super Mario 64/Sunshine (3D) - visuals apart. "

Whoa whoa whoa, there you go with an onslaught of opinions again.

Even then, what about Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2? Those games were head-and-shoulders the best Mario games I have ever played in my life.

Additionally, I enjoy the New Super Mario Bros Wii and Wii U games far more than Mario World. And I grew up with Mario World, so I've put my nostalgia aside. I'm also not sure what's so wrong with 3D World. I thought that was a fantastic game!

I agree with Mario Tennis and Other M, but you certainly have a lot of bias in the rest of your opinions. I'm not being insulting when I say that, just addressing the point.

Again, I reiterate, out of the games we've discussed previous to this post, none of them were bad games. You had a couple in there you didn't like, but they're far outweighed by the truly quality titles Nintendo has been able to develop for the Wii U.

@VanillaLake That's definitely true, but given the online/mp focus, that's not the most fair statement in the world. Nintendo's been weird lately, releasing amazing renditions of some franchises (Pikmin, Smash, and Mario Kart) and doing god-knows-what with others (Animal Crossing, Zelda, Mario Tennis, and Metroid). For some Star Fox is definitely in that latter category too, but man. They're all over the place.

@MarioPhD It's just that I don't understand why one should start each comment by saying "In my opinion, ...", it's a bit silly, if you ask me. Even reviews are opinions, to really know what games are better you have to take into account most people's opinion and most people agree that recent Mario Party, Mario Tennis, Paper Mario, Animal Crossing, Mario, Metroid and Zelda games are worse than the ones released before.

@Yorumi

Yeah, but Zero has 5 extra stages and a co-op mode (first time in the series). And an arcade mode in addition to its main campaign. 64 had 3 vehicles and Zero features 5 total. Not to mention the Blue Marine wasn't that cool of a vehicle. People criticize the Gryrowing but I enjoyed Zoness on Zero a hell of a lot more than I did Aquas on 64.

So yeah, multiplayer vs. even online would be great. Hopefully it'll make it in a sequel.

@munstahunta Twilight Princess is one of the best games ever made, so I hope you enjoy it.

@VanillaLake I hear ya. Poe's law and such comes into effect for me; I never know when someone honestly thinks they can really make objectively true claims online..... since I'm sure some people really do. Scary thought, but almost surely the case for someone out there. I've got no issues with you though, fellow internet citizen.

@MarioPhD Yeah, again, most people agree that Pikmin, Smash, and Mario Kart (the three you mentioned) Wii U games are great. And I think that, too (even though I'm not a Smash fan).

@VanillaLake I just hope the NX comes out to positive sales. It kills me to see so many great titles come out and so few people buying them. I suspect we will see a LOT of Wii U ports of the best titles that undersold around launch (Zelda U is already obviously 100% confirmed with Smash rumors abound as well). Some great stuff on the system, but between the name, the horsepower, and the lack of third parties, the Wii U has been doomed for a while.

I saw last E3 as The Year of Reusing Game Engines and Assets, to squeeze every cent possible out of as few resources as possible, making the recent releases all super lackluster. I would kill for the NX reveal and launch software to be discussed at E3 this year, but alas. The death of the Wii U will be dragged on as long and painfully as possible. What a shame.

@Dakt

- its great for people who like graphics and movies I guess.
Liked the first, loved the second, played the third and thought it was really boring - in fact, all of them were boring and shallow, but I didnt realize it at first. So I guess the fourth is the same with a fresh coat of paint. Watching a movie and shooting, shooting, shooting...

@MarioPhD I might sound serious sometimes, but I really respect everyone's opinions (and probably I confused you and somebody else, so sorry for that).

It's hard to know what games are better, so the only way to know is to consider what the majority of people think, we agree that the majority of people think recent Animal Crossing, Zelda, Metroid, Mario Tennis... games are not as good.

I also hope that Nintendo is successful in the future, whether with NX or as a third party developer, but they have to do much better than this.

Not only are the controls a HUGE learning curve, its not exactly a long game before every level can be played, and there's no competitive Multiplayer or much of a High Scoring scene like SF64 to come back to. Not everyone keeps their finished games.

Oh well, least people brought it. Nintendo got the money anyway... XD

@Vandy

That's not how it works. Game developers aren't public services. There's no inherent reason they should make games for Nintendo. They're businesses that want to make profit. If they can't make profit on Nintendo consoles, they wont release games there.
That's Nintendo's problem, not theirs.

@VanillaLake

Which recent Zelda games haven't been good? You seem to only mention Triforce Heroes.

Link Between Worlds and Twilight Princess HD were fantastic.

Hyrule Warriors, as a spinoff, was great too.

@Dezzy

Shovel Knight made an absolute killing on Wii U. Guacamelee did the same. They use the "profitability" excuse as a crutch for their laziness and apprehension.

Heck, even the most-respected guys from Rare who are developing Yooka-Laylee insisted that they are dedicated to developing a port for Wii U because they think it's a fantastic system with a dedicated fanbase.

No, but I probably will soon. Where is this option?

@Vandy Of course what I write is my opinion, but so what you write is your opinion. If you say that those recent games are better than the older ones, it's just your opinion, too. If we met I could explain in detail all the whys and probably convince you or at least understand each other, but it's too difficult to do so on here. I can't accept the "New" series is better than masterpiece Super Mario World statement, sorry. I could discuss about Galaxy 1/2 and Super Mario 3D World though, but as corridor-platformers can't outdo Super Mario 64 or Super Mario Sunshine magnificence. About Skyward Sword, I had fun, but as a game is a joke compared to Twilight Princess.

@Vandy

There is no debate here: the software line up (and in turn, sales numbers) of the Wii U are the WORST in company history. There's almost literally 6 games coming out this year for the console. Diversity in the Wii U line up?! There's basically no sports OR racing genre on the console save for Mario Kart and Mario Tennis. The more you comment, the more I'm suspecting you may actually be an employee of the company.

@VanillaLake

From from both a surface-level as well as core gameplay perspective, the New Super Mario Bros. series completely trumps Super Mario World in every way. The same goes for Super Mario Galaxy 1+2 over Mario 64 and Sunshine. Every single thing about the game is better. Better gameplay, better graphics, better longevity, better controls. It's nostalgia talking when someone says Super Mario World was the "pinnacle" of a Mario game.

And believe me, I am an enormous Mario fan who grew up playing Super Mario Bros 1 and every game beyond that. It is perfectly ok to be nostalgic about a game. It's just important to recognize when you are doing it.

@InternetBowser Rare Replay is necessary because it has the best of Rare's history, while Playtonic has many ex Rare members, so I follow both. I've seen some Xbox One + Rare Replay bundles, in case you are interested, or you can just wait a bit longer...

@Vandy
Those are 2 games. And the original claim was "blockbusters", not indies.
Watch Dogs took months longer to release on Wii U and then sold almost nothing when it had.
You can't just expect developers to make exclusive games for the lowest selling console. Especially when so many of them have created companies that make very particular types of games, only a few of which actually work with the Nintendo audience.
Capcom made Resident Evil Revelations an exclusive on the 3DS and it sold incredibly poorly for what it was. You can say that they should have made a different game. But their workforce isn't necessarily set up for that.

@gatorboi352

No sports games? Blame the 3rd party devs.

No racing games? Blame the 3rd party devs. Although, we did get Sonic racing all-stars, which was pretty good.

The fact you even take sales numbers into consideration towards the worth of a video game system speaks enough volumes of the quality of discussion I would have with you anyway, so I'm happy for you to write me off as an employee of the company and just move on.

With a gun to my head, I couldn't even make a guess how many copies of Super Mario Galaxy 2 were sold. But is it still one of the best games I have ever played in my entire gaming life? Absolutely. So what do I care about the sales figures?

Same goes for the fools who put so much stock into framerate and resolution of graphics and processing power of games and consoles. If these things matter to you, you are not a gamer at heart.

@Dezzy

People didn't even buy Watch Dogs on PS4 and Xbox One.

It's poorly reviewed by user ratings. If it didn't sell on Wii U, that's because it's not a good game.

@Dezzy You are right.

@Vandy Not nostalgia. The New Super Mario Bros. series is widely considered dull and uninspired while Super Mario World is widely considered the best 2D Mario ever. Nostalgia doesn't blind me, believe me.

By reading all these comments, it is more and more clear that there is a rift between many Nintendo fans and the rest of the community, in the way games are evaluated, expectations, tastes and desires.

I can hardly see how nintendo can win back the people they lost in the last years, without withdrawing resources from what the N hardcore fanbase want.

When someone minimize about lack of 2016s features in a brand new game, it means we are really lying on different planes....

@VanillaLake

I don't deny that Super Mario World is still very popular, but it's been done better several times over since then. But people are going to love what they grew up with.

It's the same reason Mega Man 2 is still "widely considered" to be the "best" game in the series. There is absolutely nothing about it that wasn't refined and done better in later iterations. It's simply the one people glommed onto most with nostalgia.

@Project_Dolphin

"When will you realize that you just don't like Nintendo video games anymore?"

I'd imagine because that's simply not true for many old school Nintendo fans. I can go back and play old Nintendo games and have a great time. It's the games they are currently making that don't interest me in the slightest, and look mediocre to down right bad, with few exceptions. I dislike the direction Nintendo has been heading, not Nintendo themselves.

@VanillaLake

Just my opinion, but I think Mario Bros. U is the best 2D Mario, followed by Mario Bros. Wii, then World, then 3. I didn't really like the handheld New Mario Bros. games that much but the consoles improved upon the 2D mario formula

@arnoldlayne83 I think that's the key. Nintendo can listen to them and think that everything is alright, or they can listen to the majority of us and think that something is wrong. Anyway, Nintendo is exactly like their die hard fans, they believe they are right even though millions of people that supported them in the past are telling them that they are wrong.

@Vandy

What have you been smoking? It sold 10 million copies. Only about 2% of that was on the Wii U.

@greengecko007 You are right, that's correct and it's backed up by numbers.

@VanillaLake

Nintendolife also said Star Fox Zero is a fantastic game and one of the best in the series.

If I'm supposes to agree with the opinion on Super Mario World, then you certainly should agree with theirs for Star Fox Zero.

I also happen to think Mario Bros U has the tightest and most refined controls in 2D Mario history. And the most varied moveset. I know many others agree.

@Vandy As I explained, Nintendo Life reviews are really generous when dealing with first party Nintendo games. Wait 10 years and check what Nintendo Life says then about Star Fox Zero. I'm sure they will be harsher.

I just got the game on the 22nd of May for my B-Day. I haven't played much of it. So far I kind of like it, but there are 2 drawbacks:

1 - Motion Controls
2 - No Multiplayer

Now, I have only played some of it, so maybe in a couple days the motion controls will no longer bother me. However, games that only have a single player option (I have no interest in co-op) and no DLC, additional modes, or future add-ons tend to not stay on my shelf for too long. Once I exhaust the game for what it can give me (that's approximately 2-5 months, if it has no multiplayer or other options) it goes up for sale when I need money or want a new game.

@Yorumi Exactly.

I've purchased nothing but Nintendo systems (day one at that) up until this gen when I also acquired an Xbox 1 recently to pair with my (day one purchase) Wii U. Why? Because I was finally over the nonsense of the new Nintendo.

I'm currently having a blast playing through DOOM right now, btw. Remember DOOM, guys? There used to be a game called DOOM 64, EXCLUSIVE to the Nintendo 64 and was hailed as one of the greats. THAT is the kind of Nintendo we all want back in our lives. I don't suspect it will ever return.

@Stu13 ...and people still wonder why people emulate games....No one will pay full price for a game they don't want. So if no demo exists, either wait for a price drop or just emulate for a bit... Those prices won't drop to a decent price until at least 3 years later anyways....

@Dreamcaster-X Amen. I love having a library of Nintendo titles.

This isn't surprising...

... The game requires a lot of energy and learning, which is not a thing lots of people have patience for these days.

@Yorumi
My point was that the quality hasn't gone down overall, but seems to have gone down because there have been fewer games. The fewer the games, the more each impacts the total average quality. Every gen gets a few clunkers. The Wii U just got the bulk of its share last year, when it didn't have a ton of awesome games to counter them out (though they did have more great games than bad games). As for resources, considering the amount of time Nintendo often spends developing its games, it's not as if they could simply release more all of a sudden, and most games in development are likely going to the NX.

As for that second part of your comment, aside from not getting my dose of Animal Crossing, I'm not particularly dissatisfied with the Wii U. More games would have been nice, but I've just enjoyed the games that came out on the Wii U so much that they made the original investment worth it. Tropical Freeze, Mario Kart 8, NSMBU, SSB, Pikmin 3, etc all rank among my favorite games of all time. For that reason, for me, Nintendo has earned my interest in the NX, not through powerful hardware or a massive library, but through sheer quality of software.

@IceClimbers
I don't know how Metacritic adjusts for re-reviews, but I don't think all that many sites did them anyway. At the time, I think a lot of reviewers basically said they reviewed what they had, and it wouldn't be fair to adjust it later for Splatoon and not pretty much every other game (with the frequency of post-release game fixes, they'd have to re-review games weekly). If Splatoon were reviewed as it is today, though, I think its Metascore would probably be much closer to 90, maybe 90+.

@VanillaLake

"As I explained, Nintendo Life reviews are really generous when dealing with first party Nintendo games. Wait 10 years and check what Nintendo Life says then about Star Fox Zero. I'm sure they will be harsher."

Then this is not at all relevant to the discussion. If NintendoLife ALREADY gives generous reviews to first-party Nintendo titles, if you couple that with the already-expected nostalgia that comes with Super Mario World for practically everyone, then you would have an incredibly overblown score.

Further still, you're also telling me that in order for my point to be admissible in this discussion, then I'd have to "wait ten years" for NintendoLife's updated review.

And if anything, I actually think the reviews of Star Fox Zero will be more favorable in the future once the whole "I'm just mad they delayed it for the controls" nonsense has become ancient history. It's likely that Nintendo will do a 180 on their control scheme for the next iteration of the series, completely eliminating the motion aspect. Then SFZ will be remembered as a game that was a huge leap forward in the series and a step in the right direction but people will instead give Nintendo grief for "caving into pressure" and "not sticking to their guns" after they change the controls back to suit the whiners.

Nintendo can never win.

@gatorboi352 Need for Speed, Wii Sport Club.... But ya, it is lacking. That said, I love the games that the WiiU does have. I got an Xbone for sports & racing, but don't play them that often

@gatorboi352 @Yorumi you hit the nail in the head. I'm amazed by how their opinion change whether the thing in question is made by Microsoft/Sony or Nintendo. The same thing can be rubbish or wonder. They mock mature games but when one single of them is released on a Nintendo platform then the hype is crazy. They mock other games for being short and linear but when it's a Nintendo game they say: What's the point in being long? What's the point in online? What's the point in different modes/paths? Hypocrisy, I guess.

Change Star Fox Zero brand to any other and release it for PS/Xbox and what their opinion about the game would be? Short, clunky, rip-off...

@Turbo857 are you saying NL are above a bit of criticism or just that they are always right?

@gatorboi352 Doom 64 was great because it was released on Nintendo 64 but Doom reboot is rubbish because it is not released on Wii U. Sales were important last gen when Wii was king but not before and after when both GameCube and Wii U struggled to be popular. I hear you. Furthermore, this generation sales matter when talking about 3DS but not when talking about Wii U. Star Fox Zero controls are great but we are not really gamers and that's the reason why we don't like them.

I bought the physical copy thinking the reviews are so divisive I might want to sell it back, but the only regrets I have are
1-not downloading it because I certainly won't be selling it
2-owning Star Fox Guard, what a terribly boring game I want to sell that disc

@gatorboi352 Same here, this is the first generation I bought something more than a Nintendo console. I'm glad I did.

@InternetBowser Rare Replay for me is a dream came true because I've never owned an Xbox until now and I missed some Rare games, plus some games that I already had are remastered while others have better frame rate and resolution. Most complaints are really picky and many people already owned the Xbox 360 games, that are unchanged, but for that price and a 30 games collection, who complains? Nintendo would have charged me a lot for every game individually so I'm really grateful.

@Shiryu Well, I 've been watching a few Overwatch gameplay videos and the play just looks like a free for all mess! ( please correct me if I'm wrong - I haven't actually played the game) . Is it the epitome of a modern game?

I bought the game, beat it (in co-op, mind you), and plan to keep it. I enjoy the game but can't help feel that a lot of the negativity could be fixed by simply patching the game with an option to use the standard control scheme from N64 or 3DS. I don't mind the control scheme in Star Fox Zero, but it does take getting used to and can be more than some players care to learn. It does have it's place. The current control scheme makes for a level of precision and speed shooting that simply can't be done easily with joysticks.

@Project_Dolphin

Implying that I "worry" about video games I'm not interested in? Maybe that was just a poor choice of words on your part, but I definitely don't get my panties in a knot over Nintendo's latest software not sparking my attention. I buy what I like, and don't bother with what I don't like; simple.

The only problem I have is that I feel Nintendo has greatly disserviced many Wii U owners, and lied one too many times for me to have the same brand trust I used to have in their products. But ultimately, that's fine too, because I'm perfectly capable of putting my entertainment money elsewhere, as I have been. It's no skin off my nose.

@InternetBowser That's for sure. Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie remasters are awesome, while Conker's Bad Fur Day has better frame rate and resolution (missing Conker Reloaded though). Add a lot of really interesting N64 and 360 games: the two Perfect Dark games, Blast Corps, Jet Force Gemini, Kameo, Banjo-Kazooie Nuts & Bolts...

Right now I'm addicted to Viva Piñata, I don't know why exactly, it's just a lot of fun.

I'm also excited about Yooka-Laylee (Playtonic), and Sea of Thieves (Rare) too!

@Project_Dolphin I would say that I fall in that category myself, but I have no desire to sell my Wii U. How else would I play the games that I have for it that I greatly enjoy? I wish there were more games that I enjoyed on the system though. It's definitely a much smaller amount compared to recent consoles like the Wii or Gamecube.

I've always seen selling consoles as just another bad investment, unless the person really just hated it and didn't have any games they enjoyed.

@cfgk24 By Blizzard standards, I think they gave people what they wanted. I would have preferred "Starcraft Ghost" myself...

FWIW, I actually enjoy AC Amiibo Festival, but I agree that Nintendo does need to reconsider their development strategies.

Wait till next year, people.

@Project_Dolphin I am a Nintendo gamer, same as you. I still buy and play Nintendo games and some of them are good, some are mediocre and some others are rubbish, so what's your point? Unless you don't want critical opinions to be expressed...?

@Project_Dolphin Probably Nintendo should release demos to let more people try the games before buying? It doesn't look like they are selling more without them, anyway. That would be better than any review.

EDIT: Also, if the game is so good, why it still has a score average of 69?

@Dezzy Regarding #210 about Watch Dogs Wii U.
"Watch Dogs took months longer to release on Wii U and then sold almost nothing when it had."
Ubisoft delayed the Wii U port from May to November of 2014 (about a week before Sm4sh Wii U IIRC) to "make sure the game was good" when they shipped it. After that, fans didn't get further information until around 2 weeks before launch when Ubisoft provided a few screenshots and announced it would not receive DLC released on other versions. The game finally launched and surprise surprise, it was a standard port at full price which didn't make use of the GamePad apart from offscreen play.
Is it really that surprising that it didn't sell well considering the timing of its release, little to no information about it beforehand and the fact you could pick up better versions at a cheaper price at that point? It's as if Ubisoft wanted the port to sell miserably....

@Project_Dolphin That's absolutely false. There are some Nintendo games that are not motion-based and that are not clunky and that are actually good. Also, there are some motion-based games that have been well designed like Maiden of Black Water. There's some variety in Nintendo output, you know. If all Nintendo games were like Star Fox Zero Nintendo would be totally dead with no future at all and bought by any other company that cared.

EDIT: Don't confuse whining with being critical and having an opinion.

@Project_Dolphin True, but situations can, and often do, occur than can mislead a consumer to be more confident in buying a product than they may otherwise be.

For example, I bought my Wii U in the beginning of the launch period, greatly looking forward to Pikmin 3. Now, Pikmin 3 was not currently out when I bought my Wii U, but was still touted as a launch title, and I figured Nintendo Land would be a fun side distraction for a while (which it was, I really enjoyed it). I had a hard time getting a Wii years ago due to shortages, and I had heard from several websites to expect Wii U shortages similarly, so I definitely didn't want to wait on getting a Wii U when I saw the chance and have to wait 6-7 months to play Pikmin 3 if I could help it.

Little did I know though that Pikmin 3 would be delayed almost a full year, and the Wii U would already see a significant price drop in that time... I'm fully confident that Nintendo knew Pikmin 3 was not anywhere close to being done, and chose to delay it after the Wii U was already being sold for a while in order to try and gain more sales by appearing to have more launch titles in the works.

It's moves like that seem dirty to me, among other things, that have sullied my opinion of Nintendo very quickly recently. Shame, because I'd like to think I have always liked Nintendo the most out of any other game related company. But if times are changing, I'm sure I'll cope.

@lewieboy124 He also mentioned other games like 3DS exclusive Resident Evil Revelations and many others could be listed like Wii U exclusive Zombi U, etc. Those games were Nintendo-exclusive for some time.

@greengecko007 I was also looking forward to Pikmin 3 when Wii U was released. Also, I was hoping for a great Mario game and although New Super Mario Bros. U was better than other "New" games, it was pretty the same. Super Mario 3D World is probably the Wii U game that has disappointed me the most because I am a huge Mario fan and I was hoping for a great 3D Mario game with exploration and secrets like Super Mario 64 and Super Mario Sunshine and then I got a game of which gameplay is like the platforming sections of Mario Party but prettier and with useless gimmicks like touching the GamePad for opening a door. I was also hoping for the next Zelda game but that one is coming with NX, I see.

@gatorboi352 Doom is amazing. I am having a blast on my Ps4 they nailed the old school shooter mechanics with great coat of paint.

You know that if it was released on wiiU too, it would probably bomb, and the people would say "pfff another overrated brown gray shooter"

@InternetBowser Same here, I'm new to Viva Piñata, I thought it would be a children game but now I love it and it's quite deep, better than Animal Crossing if you ask me. Also, I had never played Conker's Bad Fur Day until now (I 100ed% it, great moments!). The DK games are fortunately available on Wii U: the DKC trilogy and DK64 (although I did not like DK64 as much, but good to have it). Also, I still have my Diddy Kong Racing and Goldeneye 007 N64 cartridges! Heaven, I even bought an RGB N64 for them!

EDIT: Banjo and Kazooie are probably the best characters EVER!

@Project_Dolphin Well, you can be sure that even less people will buy NX at launch, if that comforts you.

@arnoldlayne83 I'll probably get it eventually, everybody says the game is real fun. Is it a classic Doom or half survival horror like the genre tag claims?

@Project_Dolphin Yep, definitely a lesson learned there. I can't say I'm definitely going to get whatever the NX is when it comes out. I'll be using much more of a wait and see approach. If it ends up being something I like, great. If not, well, that money can be put to something else, right?

Star fox is down!

@VanillaLake it's an all new game, scary and fast, but not survival horror or anything. I'll only say two words that will blow your mind when you play: Glory Kills.

@gatorboi352
First things first: is it just me or your profile picture fits your comments perfectly? A hollow shell of what Nintendo is supposed to be.

For what it's worth, I also complained A LOT about Nintendo as of late, but I'm standing in a kind of middle ground.
I feel no shame in admitting that, to me, a Super Smash Bros. title, a Mario game, and a Pokémon game, and any Zelda are still worth the price of the console alone. 100% pure Nintendo fanboy, right here. The good franchises never cease to be killer apps to me. I could go on and on.
At the same time, however, the opposite is also true. I just bought the Xbox 360 version of LEGO Indiana Jones 2 for 2,49 € and LEGO Pirates Of The Caribbean at the exact same price on the same console, which would never happen on Nintendo hardware (as another example of gaming life being more affordable elsewhere), combining cheap prices with games and entire franchises that have never been seen on Nintendo hardware, which are the reasons I also own Microsoft consoles. While I indeed am a Nintendo fan, I've never been a purist for purely practical reasons. While I don't think merely owning a Sony or Microsoft console could feel complete to a player without a taste of the Nintendo Difference, the opposite is also painfully true. I enjoyed titles such as Mass Effect, Skullgirls and countless others for the price of a tenth of your average Wii U slash 3DS software, and had an absolute blast from start to finish. I'm not saying Microsoft is the only way to go, of course the PS4 also has noticeable pros; I just advise everyone with a Nintendo console to get a companion piece of hardware from one of its rival companies, just as I'd suggest PS4 and X1 owners to grab a Wii U as fast as they can.
Nintendo is awesome, nostalgic yet innovative, but behind the times at the same time.

So I'm partially with you, as long as you don't become the new @Pachterkid.

@AlexSora89 Ever since I got a 360 in 2009, I knew multiple consoles in the same generation were the way to go for the ultimate experience. It especially pays off when you have extremely negative years for certain consoles like Nintendo consoles in 2016.

@gatorboi352 Yeah I think I'll get it eventually. I was a kid when I played Doom on my father's computer. Now I'm an adult but hey, those were big pixels and these are HD creatures, the adult will be more scared that the child!

You know what this means? GameStop is so flooded with copies of the game, they will pay jack squat for it.

Glad I waited. I'd probably be willing to part with thirty dollars for a copy.

@AlexSora89 Some people would die before buying a non-Nintendo console. I used to be a Nintendo fanboy when I was a kid.

I got a Wii U shortly after launch and I don't regret it, but then I realised how little support it was getting so I got a PS4. The visual upgrade KOd me but it wasn't until I got an Xbox One that I found the best deals and lots of retro and new stuff, like Sonic CD for less than €5, Halo Master Chief Collection, and you can actually play Killer Instinct 3 for free, and Rare Replay for €30 of course, the main reason why I got an Xbox One. Thanks to Sony and Microsoft I have discovered a whole new world of games that Nintendo does not offer me and I'm enjoying lots of remasters as well. That doesn't mean I don't care for Nintendo any more, I bought Twilight Princess HD even though I already played the Wii version and I'm enjoying it a lot as well (it is my favourite Zelda game).

I find it increasingly difficult to continue to root for Nintendo! From the horrible Wii u vc service (1 vc game a week for the most part of 3 years!) to the 3-4 month gaps in major retail releases, to the lack of online play, to the lack of a unified account to enable cross buy, to the eshop horrible sales etc, it's just been one blunder after another after another!!! Anyone catch the Xbox 360 super sale right now?? You could drop $100 easy!! Oh man the tough choices!! I never feel that way with the eshop sales!! Star Fox not helping things either!! Just so so! First Atari then Sega and coming soon to a theater near you, Nintendo! The last of the great video game hardware companies!

I couldn't fully adapt to the controls and I kinda sucked at the game haha. But, I did enjoy it and I was happy with the improved visuals after the poor E3 showing last year. I think Star Fox Zero is going to be a nice collecting item down the road. Not many Wii U games got beautiful exterior boxes and the dual release of Project Guard is a nice, touch. It looks great in the collection.

Not surprising. People these days don't play merely to get high scores, not like in the past when arcades (which are mostly high scoring games) were king.

@Tasuki Thanks for that!

@Nintendofan83 Maiden of Black Water Limited Edition is the prettiest Wii U physical release, unfortunately it was too Limited.

Oucheth

Not at any of my gamestops

@AlexSora89 well said.

Glad you like the profile pic 😁

Yeah...this game was just ok imo. I bought new to support the Star Fox series (and thought the addition of Star Fox Guard was helpful per value), but SF64 and SF Assault are much better. This game's pretty short per content, even with some of the extras and branching paths. The controls are interesting and generally a good idea (shooting in a different direction than you fly in), but the difficulty doesn't seem to be a balanced difficulty (most was too easy, but the difficulty spikes / changes were pretty drastic and felt more cheap than fair. Perhaps if I mastered the controls I'd feel differently, but I did adjust to them enough to see / complete all branching paths. The decision to make the main screen more cinematic at times [the weird view where the camera is not behind the cockpit] was a bit mind-boggling to me). Lacks some of the classic Star Fox charm (less good cheesy one liners, seems to rehash too much SF64, but not as well done).

Did have fun with 2P co-op though, seemed to work better as opposed to one person trying to control everything. We got through the main story branch within a day though. I feel like the 'true' or classic Star Fox experience is remains limited to Star Fox 64 and Star Fox Assault games.

I am actually surprised at this. But I do understand a lot of people are more likely to trade a game in if it has no online multiplayer. I bought my copy on day-one and I am not planning to trade it in any time soon.

The poll is very biased towards the side that sold their copies, considering that those options are first. Also, where's the option for "No, I will not be selling it because I love this game."? That 40+ % for the only no option could split further.

well, I guess if I want to buy it sometime, it will probably be pretty cheap.

This is good news for me. As much as I like to support Nintendo, I'll definitely pick up a used copy considering they are going for around $35. (According to the picture anyway.) I've been wanting to get Star Fox Zero—the game looks great—but the $50 price tag just doesn't seem worth it for me. I hear the game length is pretty short, even when unlocking all the paths.

I beat everything in 3 days and sold it. I enjoyed it but I didn't find the levels interesting to replay.

I actually just sold my first print edition 10 minutes ago, just wasn't a fan. But I had great chat with the guy who bought it off me about all things Nintendo (mainly the new Zelda naturally) and it was a good feeling giving a fellow Nintendo fan a great deal.

@gatorboi352 Some people in those masses don't seem to think so. They know it's flawed, but their opinions come down to the game not being as bad as others think. As for me, the game is okay. Although this seems to be an issue, because it doesn't take much for one positive opinion of this game to turn into a verbal war.

@Yorumi I sure as heck ain't, and I played SFZ. I just think the game is okay, and when it comes to the motion controls, it works fine for the most part. I'm just not seeing how it is "broken", when I blew past this game and never dying all the time. But that's just my experience with the game. With this game split down the middle, it left me concerned.

@Kirk Well I feel the game isn't terrible, still bugs me when I have a different opinion, it seems to be a problem to others.

completely stupid "article" that I didn't realize happened on this site. Any more and you'll have less viewers

@helbertpina
Co-op is more fun than I thought it would be. Helps that in many modes both can shoot. Having to sort of plan a move and warn your partner what you are doing so they are prepared to shoot is rewarding.

There is no substance to this except for the poll, honestly. A couple of pictures with no context. Because the game has a mixed reaction, the pictures of what could be exceptional or completely average numbers of returned games become an important inflammatory note.

I'd guess it would have a high return rate because some have impatience with controls and the main game can be finished rather quickly. If a player isn't predisposed to get the most out of the game, it's a pretty easy return. Metacritic and this poll at least suggest that most people who bought it (in those contexts) got something out of it, though.

Yeah, and the poll only paints a picture of this community. Expected more returns overall, but maybe it's a bit early.

Guard wasn't mentioned in the article. With people selling their copies of Zero, are they traditionally in guard as well? I heard a lot of people likes SFG as its own separate thing.

Only Nintendo apologists think this game is any good.

Sorry if this has already been answered (don't feel like reading >300 comments), but how is this news? Pretty much every game period from Mario Kart to Uncharted and everything in between typically starts flooding the used market shelves of Gamestop and the like after about 3-4 weeks after release. Even the biggest AAA titles have this happen to them, so why would this be a big deal?

Star fox alone is awesome, and I really want to enjoy Star fox Zero, but the game just stinks. I would give the game a (5 out of 10). The games controls are just flat out distracting and they completely remove you from having a fun and enjoyable experience.

Nintendo need to make some DLC for classic controls. The game is fun but the controls make it too hard for today's low attention span audience.

So... not reading 300+ pages, but there's something I was wondering. Does SFZ have online leaderboards for stage scores? The review didn't mention it, and I don't remember hearing about it. If it did though, I feel like a healthy competitive score chasing scene could've increased replay value. At least, that's what kept me playing Sin & Punishment till they shut down the servers. I feel like every rail shooter is primarily about scoring, so if SFZ doesn't have leaderboards (or won't get them ever) then I wouldn't be surprised if this keeps happening, especially considering it lacks an online versus mode.

So disappointing that there is so much narrow-mindedness towards this game. A few hours ago, I showed two of my cousins this game for the first time. They'd never even heard of Star Fox Zero. Were they confused? Not after they played the Arwing Training section. They instantly fell in love with the game, and were Co-op'ing the game in a surprisingly adept manner (one of them is a pilot in real life, and his ability in that translated to his skill in this game). It was really cool. No way I would ever want to get rid of this fantastic and vehemently misunderstood game!

@VanillaLake it is more classic than other. You costantly run and move around jumping to avoid shots, no covers, no healt regen. I find it more hard than average game, I am dying a lot, more than in dark souls...

I'm not going to read all 331 comments, so this may have been mentioned. But whenever I've seen large amounts of one game traded in, it's because the trade in store has made a mistake and someone has been able to buy in bulk many copies of one game for a cheaper price than the trade in value offered in somewhere like cex.

So I buy Starfox for say £20 on offer somewhere, Cex are offering £25 trade in. I buy 10 copies, costing me £200, I get £250 trade in, which gets me a nice 1TB PS4. It happens all the time.

I traded my copy in less than a week. I did all the levels, got most medals, and realized I'll never play it again, and even if I wanted to, I have Starfox 64.

@AcridSkull I once found a game which was available cheaper new on Amazon than CEX were offering to pay for used copies!

How they sell second hand games for £35 when they're available for under £30 online I don't know. Some idiots must buy them or they wouldn't do it I guess.

It seems PlatinumGames create real gems whit their own IPs but when they have to work with other IPs then everything rumble down... TMNT will soon fail as SF did.
http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2016/05/tmnt_mutants_in_manhattan_runs_at_30fps_on_ps4_lasts_around_3_hours

Wow a picture really speaks a thousand words. Nintendo really messed up with this one.

@andreoni79 Yes, it seems Platinum cannot keep a straight line in quality.... especially when we talk about other IPs then theirs. The only recent good one I can remember has been Transformers Devastation. Great combat, tight controls and loot-fair.

Praise the Sun, sunbro

I haven't gotten this or any other game this year because I'm broke as heck, but as bad for the game as it is I hope this means it goes down in price a good deal for me because I really do want to play it! Since the game is so short I'd feel more comfortable paying less for that reason too.

Now if Fire Emblem Fates can also go down in price soon so I can afford it too, that'd be great. ;-;

I bought the game day one. The special edition with the steel book and Star Fox Guard... I'm yet to give it a go. Both games are sitting on my shelf sealed.

As a huge Star Fox fan this game really disappointed. The story wasn't new and the controls were not needed. I realize they want to push the reason for the game pad but sheesh. Would it have hurt to offer normal controls too? This game should have been amazing after so many years between the last game and it was just plain disappointing. The graphics were okay, the story was the same again, and the controls were terrible. Miyamoto needs to retire and let the younger crew at Nintendo have a stab at these franchises before he runs them in the ground. With poor sales and reception we will likely never get another Star Fix game now. I love the 3DS version and will never give it up, but I traded this trash and my WiiU in the same week. I have been a fan of Nintendo for over 20 years and skipped PS2/PS3 generation to stay with them. Now though, I just cannot keep saying they are good when they clearly are not. There are lots of problems they need to sort out by the time we see the NX. I will be Tammy a wait and see approach when it launches. Good luck to them but if they don't address things like cross buy, hard drive space, their crappy account system, and the overall lack of vision for their own IPs then they will follow Sega very soon.

@LJliger99 It's not terrible; but it's not exactly stellar stuff either. It falls far short of what a new Star Fox could and should have been in my opinion.

Also, Jim Sterling basically speaks the exact thoughts that are in my head regarding Star Fox Zero:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w2RMBrmTsk

You might disagree on a personal level, but the fact is, he's 100000% right on this one.

It was to be expected! The once master of easy controls (Miyamoto, or Nintendo in general) has made things hopelesly cumbersome. Its as all their experience has suddenly dissapeared. I also have trouble with the controls, but the game is fun enough to keep.

Oh, and Jim Sterling sums up all the problems with Star Fox Zero basically perfectly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w2RMBrmTsk

I could not have said it better myself—and he is 1000000% right.

Quality game I had no probs, could be the end of Star Fox unless Zero gets a remaster on the NX with standard controls and online multi-player.

@Pahvi @Tsuchinoko The release was different between EU and NA. For EU the standard edition only came with Star Fox Zero (No Guard) whereas for NA, Guard came with every physical copy of Zero. Think of it like Bayonetta 2 + 1.

@Pahvi A physical copy. Meanwhile those of us in Europe who wanted the physical version of Star Fox Guard were fleeced by Nintendo because we had to buy the First Print Edition which was a rip-off.

But it's nothing compared to the upcoming Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE: Fortissimo Edition where they want us to pay €85 for mostly cheap tat. Which by the way you can't even buy anywhere. This for a niche game that's lazily translated, censored, content removed and is charging for day 1 DLC. The game has failure written all over it.

Haven't got it and after trying my roommate's copy I won't be. Controls are a hot mess. Or as I responded in a tweet asking if I was barrel rolling. "...the Controls are not user friendly."

@TheDavyStar the place where they sell used games for more than new ones

Look at how low Nintendo has fallen. Is this their lowest point, or will they keep getting even worse?

@Pahvi Where was that? Is it still available? The cheapest I've seen was €80 plus €6+ postage. And it was only available for a short time.

@Pahvi O.K. Thanks.

@Turbo857

Just replying to your comments on being a Nintendo fan and have to agree with several of your comments. I don't believe there are too many of them that comment and write on this website. Far too much complaining going on, either that or people who know how to do it better than Nintendo. Even comments and articles from the writers on here come from 'popular' stories to try and keep the majority happy. When in truth the writers jump ship and write for Push (or a.n.other) given half a chance, especially as it more popular in these current times. Most of these people have already written for other websites possessing to be fans of other consoles then come on here telling us they have loved Nintendo since birth.

I, like you remain a true fan.

For quite a long time I have felt that certain comments and articles have reflected this in my opinion.

@Madder128 I don't know what CeX you've been to but I most recently picked up Alien: Isolation for £8...unless UK tech prices have really lowered I wouldn't call that the regular price for Alien: Isolation

@InternetBowser Oh, Rare's Star Fox Adventures is also really good, even though it's not a classic Star Fox game, it's an awesome game with some shooting sections.

@VanillaLake yes definitely. If you played the original Doom like me in the 90s you ll find yourself at home.

There are 5 difficulty levels (i guess they are called the same as original). I am playing at the third one, got at first bossfight and he is kicking my butt....

In the package you get a simple to use level editor a la MarioMaker. People are making interesting stuff with it: from reproducing a music band (!!!!???) to some coop horde mode with money after each wave to spend in upgrades.

MP is also there, and remind me of the old era of UTournament and quake arena, runnin fast, doublejumping around with your rocket launcher....

@zool

Um... neither. NL isn't above criticism and I don't agree with every review this site puts out. But... I do believe the journalists on this site are better writers and gamers than those on Kotaku and IGN.

But you unfairly accused NL of being too generous in its review of Zero while admitting you never played the game. So, how in the world would you know whether they are being generous or not? Please enlighten me.

You are aware that there are plenty of other sites that share NL's opinion, right? What did you think about the reviews left by Vgchartz, NZGamer, Nintendo World Report, Cheat Code Central and all the other publications that left great reviews for Zero?

@VanillaLake

If Zelda Wii U became an NX exclusive... then that would be Nintendo truly abandoning its Wii U fans. But they haven't cancelled the Wii U version so ya gotta give credit where credit is due.

@Turbo857 Few good Wii U games have been released in the last few years (when the console was only 2 years old) and the Wii U version of the new Zelda has been pushed back just to be released next year along with the NX version, so what Wii U support are you talking about?

@VanillaLake

Um... Mario Maker, Splatoon, Smash Bros., Mario Kart 8, Xenoblade Chronicles X, Star Fox Zero/Guard, Yoshi's Whoolly World, Kirby's whatever. Maybe ya like some of those, maybe not. Point is, they sold and that's pretty good recent support for a dying system in my book. I know you didn't like Smash Bros. but boy that DLC support was pretty amazing. Ryu?!? from Streetfighter, Cloud from Final Fantasy, Bayonetta as a playable character!?! Without buying DLC you still had access to Megaman. How awesome was that?!?

I feel a lot more sorry for those who purchased a Neo Geo, Atari Jaguar, Sega Dreamcast, Saturn, or a Sega 32x.

@Turbo857 I thought we were talking about Wii U support in the last few years when the console was only 2 years old, most of the games you mentioned were released in 2014: Mario Kart 8, Super Smash Bros. 4, Tropical Freeze; while others got mixed reception: Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, Star Fox Zero/Guard. And Super Mario Maker is a €50 level editor.

It's a shame that Zero will always be remembered this way.

While it's not 100% the game I would have liked to see, the core game is there. The gameplay is fun and rewarding. I see what they were going for and appreciate it. The motion aiming, imo, works incredibly well and much better than Splatoon, and I love Splatoon.

It's an unapologetic, arcade style shmup/flight sim in a world where MMOs, open worlds and crafting sandboxes rule the gaming landscape. Strike 1.

That's what gamers have become accustomed to and expect from every game. Every game MUST have an online multiplayer component. Every game MUST be 12-20 hours long to complete AT A MINIMUM. Every game MUST have some sort of crafting and/or leveling system. Star Fox Zero does none of it. I don't particularly care about those sorts of things, but obviously most gamers do. Strike 2, 3 and 4.

I'll still enjoy the game. If some gamers don't want to take this game for what it is, whatever. Their loss.

@Yorumi Yeah. I would like to get more into that stuff, but I have barely the time to play the games I want, no chance to get into level creation at the moment (while I will definitely try to make something on DOOM's SnapMap).

You are right, there are so many great example of excellence outside Nintendo world. Nintendo of late seem to me to be "behind" and not "in front" as many say here.....

@SharkAttackU I do not think this is completely right. Not every game must have all that features. But in 2016 we are use to, content wise, A LOT more, for that price, especially if you own some other console/gaming pc....

What you can find in Star Fox Zero at the moment, you can find in hundreds of Indie titles that cost <19.90 $. One example? Galak-Z, rogue-like space shooter with tight control and great gameplay (damn hard too). Try it if you have the chance.

@SharkAttackU I agree to some extent, but some of the people who have some dissenting view of this game can't be blamed for their, they really wanted the recent Star Fox game to be so stellar, it tells them straight up that the series can make a comeback after a generation skip. Star Fox Zero just isn't it for them, simple as that. Even if some of us finds it okay enough despite its flaws, some people want more from that from a franchise that would have had a game on the Wii, but had to look forward to the Wii U, to get them another game on the library to at least look back to. Even if it's going back to be re-imagined, they definitely still want something more than that to be a game to be remembered, but to them, it's just not there yet. They want another Star Fox game, but after this, it's skeptical. They just want something that doesn't require a gimmick. I hope Star Fox comes back one day, that's not their best, but their attempt has possibly made this franchise less likely to get another sequel. I'll keep this game, if I'm alright with it, that's all that matters. But darn it Nintendo, after Assault and Command to some extent. Well StarFox at least to me, isn't over THAT line yet. But it needs something better.

@arnoldlayne83 Heck Darius fits that category, and its older than Star Fox They started out in the early 1990's. Taito's was a bit further back in the 1980's. They're still going.

@Yorumi The Dreamcast is one of the best gaming systems ever made. It's definitely Sega's best system. It has a huge, varied library of games. For a system that was dead and buried after 2 years, it's amazing and a stark contrast to the Wii U.

What's truly remarkable is how Nintendo let this happen. How does Nintendo, coming off the resounding success of the Wii, selling over 100 million systems and untold numbers of high markup peripherals, fail so hard to support their next console? It's really baffling. Did everyone at Nintendo take a vacation from 2009 to 2011?

@SharkAttackU It was how they did their business with their Wii U, from the advertising to their markets, to how their games and other stuff went. Games depended on how well you developed them, that's a fact. It's good or it's not good. But Wii U felt like it was marketed as an upgrade to Wii when it wasn't. Not to mention the gamepad, some developers didn't know what to make of it, so they didn't give support.

@Vandy Keeping up to date with Star Fox, the only two games that has mediocre scores, is Star Fox Assault and SF Zero. Command some would consider a mediocre game, if you count the plot which was an what if story that just got people mixed up. But the scores for that and opinions of others with Command was good enough, from learning from both sides. Of course that's just some of the critics and other people who played the game and reviewed in their own rights.

I'd like to throw my two cents in here. Although I haven't played it, one of the biggest things that turned me off about Star Fox Zero was not the controls but the rehashing of the story from the N64 game. Which was a rehash of the story from the SNES game. I don't honestly understand why many Nintendo games feel the need to rehash the story continuously. It makes the structure and narrative of the game very similar and familiar. Possibly too familiar. Why couldn't they do an origins story (like a prequel) with 4 smaller campaigns for each character that lead to the events of the N64 game? It could at least had a bit more variety than Star Fox 64 in HD with motion controls.

And for all those who wonder why there are lots of people who don't like this game or disagree a lot with Nintendo, that's because we want Nintendo to succeed, possibly even more than other console manufacturers and the mobile market. However, the quality of their games and their status as a result has dropped greatly since the 90's and the 00's. We suggest things that can improve on this and we are routinely ignored in favour of an audience that doesn't exist. And this is evident in the amount of trade ins of Star Fox Zero, a very short game with with a co-op mode being sold for near full retail price. For many, it's not good value selling on motion controls and nostalgia alone.

I've been playing Nintendo games since a very young age, and even liked many of the games they were putting out during the Wii era. However, other companies have moved forward, whereas Nintendo hasn't. Nintendo still have a whole slew of problems that they could easily iron out, but won't. And many of us are fed up with it and wondering why we should spend our money with Nintendo.

That's the main point, as a cheap derivative it would have met better reception. As the next €50 Star Fox game after skipping a whole generation, it is lacking content and features and relies so much on excessive gimmicks for such a shallow experience.

@Yorumi I know Nintendo doesn't exist in a vacuum, but I do disagree that a game must check the "online multiplayer" box or "leveling system" box or the "whatever" box in order to be considered a good game. I like the game and you don't, that's fine. I'm not really trying to defend Nintendo very hard, but i do think a lot of people made up their mind about the Wii U and SFZ before either were released and there is some confirmation bias going on with that.

Sure, there are shmups for $10 on steam, some are good and some are not. Raiden 4 for the 360 is $30 used cib on amazon. It's basically a prettier version of Raiden 3. Is it worth it? I don't know. Raiden 4 brand new is $75. I know its not worth that. Dodonpachi Ressurection is $80. I happened to get SFZ with Guard for $48 with Amazon Prime. Honestly, I think I would have been a bit more disappointed had I payed the full $60. Then again, I rarely pay $60 for any game. I waited for Splatoon and XCX to go down to $50 before picked them up. I waited for the $20 Selects price for Pikmin 3 and DKCTF. I still don't have NSMBU because it's still $60(!) here in the US.

I also think the "controversy" about the gamepad is ridiculous. It doesn't need to be utilized in every game. Even the DS didn't utilize the second screen every for every game. Mini maps, options on the fly, other thing to enhance playability etc.. is a perfectly acceptable use for the second screen.

@crazycrazydave Good two cents.

@Yorumi I'll help you, these are some ideas you wrote:

"Starfox offers roughly the same content as these $10 games, but it's 5 times the price. So what could they have done? Lots of things. Online multiplayer, ranked modes, levels, customization etc. For single player several campaigns. How about a prequel campaign where you play as pepppy and fly with james and pigma? Allow players to select which of the 4 pilots they play, it's the same main campaign but they each have their own path they fly, that's 4 campaigns in 1. That also naturally leads itself to 4 player co-op. How about some fun alternate reality campaign where you play as wolf taking orders from andress and much conquer corneria and dominate the lylat system?".

@Yorumi

I do indeed. I mentioned Dreamcast because that was the last time we saw Sega make hardware and it was discountinued in the states after a measly 2 years. Great system, but if you were hoping your investment in that system would help Sega remain a hardware manufacturer... it was bittersweet purchase. Not a regretful one, mind you, but bittersweet.

@VanillaLake

Hmm.... crud. Maybe I missed your point entirely. For that, my apologies. Point I was trying to make is Nintendo's arguably been supporting the system since launch. Especially in light of the fact there are only 10-12 million Wii U owners and the system has no third party support. They're basically Sega with the Master System with the burden of higher development costs.

I get it, you feel abandoned/jaded because they haven't released enough games. Ok, I'm a Wii U owner that owns about 20+ games for the Wii U and still can't find time to play a few of them. Yeah, I would've loved a real Wii U Fire Emblem, Metroid, F-Zero, etc. but shouldn't my entitlement as a fan/gamer take a backseat when smarter business moves have to be made to ensure the survival of the very company I enjoy buying games from?

But that's the past, what do you want them to do now? Utilize their limited resources to shower the 12 million Wii U owners with more games, or allocate them to deliver a more powerful machine that falls in line with what gamers today want? Which is really a better business move?

If Nintendo had only ever made home consoles, we probably wouldn't even be discussing them on this site right now. The Wii U might've bankrupted them. Nintendo's made quite a few mistakes with the Wii U, but I don't feel abandoned as a Wii U owner. Hopefully they'll get it right with the next console.

@Turbo857 Your whole #402 comment backs up my idea that Nintendo should stop messing up with hardware and focus on what they do best: software. It's not my fault that they can't handle both things at the same time and they are not my friend or family so I don't have to sacrifice myself for them. Becoming an independent developer and reach a bigger audience would be better than what they're doing recently.

@Turbo857 There is an issue with Star Fox controls. If I purchase a game I don't expect to have to spend time getting used to a control system connected to the gamepad, which had had issues since day one. So having read some reviews I passed on the game.

I also, have noticed quite a few copies of Star Fox games that have been traded in and this seems a bit early after release, which suggests those people did not get on with the controls.

It is obvious from the publicity that the controls are an issue and the fact that Nintendo did not release a demo of the game suggests to me that a demo would lose them sales.

We used to have an Official and a non Official Nintendo magazine. The Official one normally scored a bit higher and was more Nintendo (the company) friendly.

The non Official one may score a bit lower for some games and would be more gamer friendly.

NL, I think is more Nintendo friendly.

This is NOT a good game. Beyond personal tastes, since I actually enjoyed playing it. But it feels more like a novelty game that should have been a launch title with a more robust sequel down the line.

Seriously, even if you had a good time playing it, this is not on par with the things we are seeing in the gaming world as of today.

@Yorumi Again, I don't think SFZ is perfect or even a great game. In fact, it's deeply flawed in many areas. This game could have done a million things differently or better or had more content, but that's the case with a lot of games both good and bad.

However, just because the industry is doing X, doesn't mean every game has to do X to be considered a good game. For example, just because every game is adding crafting elements doesn't mean Star Fox or Mario should add crafting and if they don't they are somehow inferior games because "that's what the rest of the industry is doing". I simply don't agree with that.

I do agree with every word of #408. I certainly won't be buying an NX on launch day, no matter how epic the line-up. I fear that the NX will be too little, too late unless it blows away the PS4 NEO and XBOX Scorpion. The PS3 example was exactly what they should have done with the Wii U. They should have dug in their heels and kept releasing games for it, working out whatever development kinks they are having while keeping their core fans (12 million Wii U owners) happy.

@Yorumi great posts the latters of yours.

As usual you nailed all the points

@VanillaLake

Ah ha, yes. I knew there was an underlying narrative somewhere in your comments.

Um, yeah. I hear ya on that and your opinion is shared by many who feel jaded by Nintendo hardware. I get that and I even have some friends that say this all-the-time. Nintendo certainly has the expertise and cherished IP to be a very, very profitable third party publisher.

But a gaming world without Nintendo hardware in it is not really a gaming world I'd like to live in. There are many worthwhile gaming experiences that I've had on Nintendo hardware and I wouldn't trade'em for a PS4 or an Xbox 360 (as much as I love those consoles). And regardless of how well its hardware does, it still manages to influence the industry as a whole. So I'm on the side that wants Nintendo to remain a hardware manufacturer for as long as they find it profitable to do so. If you think $300-$400 is a high barrier to entry to play their games, then my advice is don't buy their hardware. If enough people agree with you, maybe the NX will flop and Nintendo will go third party. I just feel they should go third party on their terms, not yours (or anyone else who agrees with you).

But... if they go third party, I'd still buy their games. Now just ain't the time, imo.

This is the thread that just keeps on giving. More than Star Fox Zero at least. Though that's not hard.

@Morph I haven't got the answer as to why, but when I used to work at Gamestop, pretty much every top-mid tier release would start coming back in droves from people who bought it 3-4 weeks after release so that's my guess.

@Yorumi
"Your claim is that we had the same number of bad games but fewer good games. That is a drop in quality."
For that year, in specific. Quality on the Wii U overall has actually gone up, in my opinion (probably not backed up by Metascores, I know). Aside from the Mario and Sonic games, Nintendo had released (including games they published) almost no bad games on the Wii U before 2015. This year has yet to see one either. On top of that, of the 3 bad games that came out last year, Devil's Third was not produced by Nintendo, and Mario Tennis was more disappointing and overpriced than bad (it would probably be considered good if it had been a $15-20 eshop game; the only real problem with it, as I understand, was the lack of content). Since the Mario and Sonic games are made by Sega, Amiibo Festival might be the only genuinely bad game Nintendo has made themselves for the Wii U in over 3 years, with no obviously bad games coming in the next year. That speaks well of their quality, not poorly. Like I said, it's the sheer quality of Nintendo's games that keeps me coming back every gen, and aside from not getting some games I wanted to get (Animal Crossing), I haven't been dissatisfied with the Wii U.

@Yorumi

"The problem is what they did with the wiiU wasn't a smart business move."

No argument there, all things considered. Should've been more powerful, Gamepad maybe smaller and plenty of other things. But that's past tense.

"There are a lot of wiiU owners who feel abandoned and have no confidence in nintendo. You're seeing many people saying the NX will be the first nintendo console they don't buy on launch day."

Again true, but admittedly there are fans who left Nintendo after the Super NES, N64, Gamecube, and even the Wii. So... if jaded Wii U owners don't buy... so what? There's probably only 6 million of you at best. Even in the unlikely scenario that all 12 million Wii U owners became jaded, you cannot sustain the success of a home console with only 12 million satisfied previous generation consumers. Nintendo needs build a system that appeals to a whole lotta people that didn't buy a Wii U. Continuing to shower us with Wii U exclusives is a waste of money, especially at this point.

"Customers don't have confidence anymore, what happens if the NX doesn't sell at expectations? Is nintendo going to drop it and put it on anemic support? And let's not fool ourselves here, lets we forget the wii drought at the end. "Well they're focusing their effort on making wiiU games" um well guess not.

Um, some customers have confidence-some don't. If NX fails, I'd suspect they'd go third party. But the NX is coming out like it or not. It's up to you if you think Nintendo still deserves your cash.

"What should they have done? Make wiiU owners happy. They wouldn't be wasting money anyway because pretty much any quality nintendo game makes money. Do you really think if they make animal crossing or metroid or fire emblem they couldn't manage to at least break even? I bet even a wave race, 1080, f-zero could at least make it's investment back. Instead of 2 zelda remakes they could have made two zelda games(remember both n64 and GC got 2, 3d zelda games)."

Yeah, those games would sell and most likely at least break even. But, I'm happy already and I'm sure a lotta fans are. But seriously, how long and far should Nintendo go to please Wii U owners who are still not happy with the console at this point? If I were Nintendo, I'd have to just cut my losses and see who comes with me next generation.

"That's the thing about it, even playing it completely safe they could please fans, and still make money. Then they at least wouldn't have to worry about selling the NX to their own fans. Imagine the difference if instead of doom and gloom wiiU owners were all saying in unison "omfg the wiiU was so great, nintendo was at their best, I know 3rd party support was weak but they can work on that, there were so many awesome nitendo games I can't wait to get the NX.""

I disagree. I don't think it's worth it to please these jaded fans by pumping more support into a dying system. And no matter how far you go to please everyone, you're always going to have your haters. The NX is rumored to have better 3rd party support. Guess we'll see.

"Although it never performed as bad as the wiiU remember what sony did with the ps3. It was DOA when it launched, it was too expensive, complicated to program for, and no one was buying it. They turned it around and it almost caught the wii in sales, and it's going to outlive the wiiU. And for a direct contrast, they didn't do that with the vita and their fans feel betrayed to the point that I doubt sony does anymore portables"

It's not easy supporting a home console and a handheld at the same time is it? Don't forget the PS3 has always benefited from steady 3rd party support regardless of its launch troubles. Even still, I don't think the PS3 made a profit until much, much later in its lifecycle. Nintendo (like most companies) is not the type of company to keep putting money into something that isn't turning a profit.

@dew12333

Thank you for the kind words. Though I respect other people's opinions that are different than mine, I just try to look at the big picture.

Unfortunately, I think some Nintendo fans sometimes see Nintendo more as Santa Claus instead of a business. So when Santa doesn't bring them what they want, the way they wanted it, when they want it, they say "Bad Santa". For example, between Gamecube and Wii we got 4 Metroids. But Santa skipped bringing a Metroid to this generation so the kids are quick to turn on Santa instead of remembering all the happiness Santa has brought them before. Santa isn't bringing NX this Christmas but will in March, so now kids are thinking Santa's ruining Christmas.

People freaked out with Nintendo revealed Metroid Prime: Federation Force for 3DS. As long as a home console Metroid comes out eventually, I'll be good.

@Turbo857

Man, that Santa Claus analogy is the best analogy I've seen for present-day treatment of Nintendo. Hats off to you, that's perfect and completely sums everything up.

@Turbo857 "Even in the unlikely scenario that all 12 million Wii U owners became jaded, you cannot sustain the success of a home console with only 12 million satisfied previous generation consumers".

That's the most positive statement I've ever read in my whole life. Basically, Wii U supporters are Nintendo's most loyal fans that had forgiven Wii's share of shovelware. The casual masses that bought Wii did not buy Wii U. What's left for Nintendo? Attracting the Xbox and Sony fanbase? There are tons of people saying how much disappointed they are with Nintendo and that they won't buy NX at launch. With due respect to you, that comment is so optimist that is utterly unreal.

@Yorumi
I said probably. I don't particularly want to look up and average every Nintendo score from the Wii, Gamecube, and Wii U generations to compare them. Even if aggregate critic scores are down, and I don't think it would be by as much as you think, I can hold up various Wii U games that I think are among Nintendo's best ever, among those legendary games you mentioned. I honestly think MK8 is the best kart racer ever produced, for example. Tropical Freeze might have done the impossible, and displaced the original DKC as my favorite DK game. The same goes for Pikmin, SSB, 3D World, and, shockingly, NSMBU. To me, the quality of games on the Wii U has been staggering (not to say there haven't been some average games). Seeing the discrepancy between my opinion and those of critics, especially when half of their complaints seem to be "Mario is still Mario" and the like, is one reason I've come to use their opinions less.

@VanillaLake
"But hey, those are the people that mocked PS and Xbox because of paid DLC and now that Nintendo is doing it is fine and justified."
The paid DLC many Nintendo fans, myself included, mocked, and still mock, were pay-to-win, day 1, and/or withheld content. Most of Nintendo's DLC falls into none of those categories. MK8's DLC, for example, offered excellent quality and value that was produced months after the game's release.

@Turbo857 "Even still, I don't think the PS3 made a profit until much, much later in its lifecycle. "

Actually the PS3 never remotely made up its losses. Between 2006-2011 Sony's gaming division had losses of approx 550 Billion Yen(5 billion) dollars. Between 2011 and 2014 the Sony gaming division made approx 80 billion yen(0.728 billion dollars). So between 2006 and 2013 they had a net loss of 4.272 billion dollars.

http://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/console-desktop-pc/jon-martindale/guess-how-much-microsoft-and-sony-lost-on-the-xbox-360-and-ps3/

Basically the PS3 was never a success, Sony's massive corporate structure at the time shouldered the massive losses to keep it competitive with the xbox 360. A company like Nintendo would collapse trying to save the WiiU the same way Sony "saved" the PS3.

@Turbo857 "Unfortunately, I think some Nintendo fans sometimes see Nintendo more as Santa Claus instead of a business".

Business? Is it a good business Nintendo's approach? Numbers say no. Also, Santa Claus doesn't cost any money (if you know what I mean).

@Turbo857 "For example, between Gamecube and Wii we got 4 Metroids. But Santa skipped bringing a Metroid to this generation so the kids are quick to turn on"

No Metroid? No Metroid, no F-Zero, no Wave Race, no Zelda (it is going to be released along with the NX version so Wii U is not necessary), no Animal Crossing, no proper Mario sports games, not a proper open 3D Mario (3D World is more a rehashed 3DLand which is a corridor platformer). Yes, a great Mario Kart, a good Smash Bros. and some good 2D platformers, that's it. That library does not support a console, if we're talking about business.

@TrueWiiMaster Sure, I've always been positive towards Mario Kart 8 DLC, what about Super Smash Bros. 4, Hyrule Warriors, Pokemon Shuffle, Pokemon Rumble World, etc., etc.? It's easy to name just the best one, but there are lots of pay-to-win and pay-for-skin DLC on Nintendo games, too.

Super Smash Bros. 4 for example, you have to buy additional characters. On Street Fighter V you can get the additional characters for free by just playing the game, even though they are post-launch characters. On Killer Instinct 3 you can get the whole game for free and pay only for the characters you want. Nintendo is currently the worst of the three as far as DLC is concerned. They even charge you twice for the same games (and DLC) even if you are a Wii U and 3DS supporter and you connect both consoles through NNID.

@VanillaLake honest trailers are great. They do both videogames and movies. Check out Destiny and Game of thrones, if you are a follower.... Fantastic....

Danger of spoilers....

@Dr_Lugae Isn't Wii U their biggest failure ever (excluding Virtual Boy experiment which was not even released here in Europe so I don't even know what it is)? So numbers don't matter this generation, right? Why is Nintendo worried then and why are they killing Wii U already? Is it for fun?

@arnoldlayne83 I will.

I guess that at this point, the fact is that Nintendo is satisfying only its core fanbase, that, like it or not, is getting smaller each generation (Wii excluded for the reason we all know). WiiU has been a letdown for many (maybe not a majority, but a significant chunk) and it was clear, since 2015, that has become a "secondary" console for many, simply because the variety is not there. No sport games, no online games, no wrpg, no driving sim, no straegy games, no fps....

That is a sad reality. It would be very interesting if NL would make a pool to ask how many jumped to ps4 or xbox1 after purchasing a wiiU (count me in).

The recent lack of polish in releases and the huge amount of franchise forgotten this gen is not helping win people back. As I said, numbers don't lie.

Now, how will Nintendo recover the lost ground? Can they?

@VanillaLake The WiiU is Nintendo's lowest selling non-VB console but it isn't a failure as one would normally imagine failure where they lost loads of money on it(e.g. Dreamcast). One thing Iwata and then Kimishima were stressing where the return to "Nintendo-like profitability". Which they can't do with the WiiU.

They're targetting high profibility but the WiiU and 3DS is low/breaking even. The only solution in that case is a new product.

@Dr_Lugae That is typical Nintendo sugar-coating.

@arnoldlayne83 That is actually the most important thing of all, when your supporters stop believing in you. GameCube was not as successful as PS2 but was almost as successful as Xbox and you didn't hear tons of Nintendo fans complaining about Nintendo back then like you do now...

@arnoldlayne83 "It would be very interesting if NL would make a pool to ask how many jumped to ps4 or xbox1 after purchasing a wiiU (count me in)."

Many, many people have jumped to PS or Xbox this generation, you can see that on any gaming website. It's not like they just stopped playing (playing is addictive).

@Vandy

Lol, thanks. As I read a bunch of comments I just couldn't get Santa Clause outta my head.

@Dr_Lugae

Wow, kudos to Sony for pulling a hail mary with the PS3! They certainly got lucky on that one. I'm glad they did.

@Yorumi

"The point of making wiiU fans happy is to build on the fanbase. If they were eager to buy the NX nintendo would automatically be in a better position."

Possibly. But... I'm sure some NX launch games were previous games developed for the Wii U. Should Nintendo use these games to make jaded Wii U owners happy or use them to strengthen the NX's launch? You make it sound like those that didn't buy a Wii U will absolutely not buy an NX. So pessimistic...

@VanillaLake

"They even charge you twice for the same games even if you are a Wii U and 3DS supporter and you connect both consoles through NNID."

Come on now, DLC Smash characters only cost $1 extra to play as the character on both systems. And you know as well as I that if Zelda Wii U became an NX exclusive there'd be a firestorm on the net. Nintendo has unfortunately put themselves in a no-win situation, so they just gotta cut their losses and move forward.

"Why is Nintendo worried then and why are they killing Wii U already? Is it for fun?"
Sacrifices must be made to ensure the NX has a stellar launch, which if you remember was the start of the domino effect that became known as the Wii U's troubles.

"Basically, Wii U supporters are Nintendo's most loyal fans that had forgiven Wii's share of shovelware. The casual masses that bought Wii did not buy Wii U. What's left for Nintendo?"

As long as you have the funds to produce new gaming hardware, "You can get always get a second chance to make a first impression".

@Dr_Lugae I think this is what irks Wii U owners the most. Where did all the money go? Certainly not into the Wii U OR 3DS launch or software. It didn't go into the hardware. Nintendo was, and still might be, flush with cash. It looks like they just put it all in their pocket, patted each other on the back, and went out to lunch and still haven't come back.

@Yorumi
I wanted to get that at launch, but it was sold out in nearby stores, so I never did. I played the demo, though, and thought it was okay (not as good as MK8). And for the record, because I think you think this is just my bias talking, my previous favorite kart racer was a tie between Double Dash and Crash Team Racing on the PS1. I was never a purely Nintendo gamer until this gen.

Blinding myself with games that I love? I understand that the Wii U's library isn't large (my Wii U collection is dwarfed by my Gamecube and Wii collections, and at least matched by my PS1, PS2, and PS3 collections), but the list of games I enjoyed as much as Tropical Freeze, MK8, or Pikmin 3 is very short. In the end, it comes down to quantity vs quality, and I've found various games on the Wii U to be of higher quality than most from the past couple generations. That's not me tricking myself or spinning words, but my actual experience.

@VanillaLake
I find the DLC of SSB a bit pricey (which is why I haven't bought any), but it doesn't fall into any of the aforementioned ridiculed categories. I do agree that the DLC should be cross-buy, though. As far as I know, Hyrule Warriors, like SSB, had the DLC mostly produced after the initial launch, and doesn't fit into any of those categories either. The other two games are free-to-play (Pokemon Shuffle's even on mobile), which I would think separates them from games that you buy. You can't really complain about the option to buy something in a game you got for free (unless it's a competitive game, and gives someone an advantage, which neither of these do). In general, Nintendo doesn't use on-disc/withheld DLC, pay-to-win DLC, or day 1 DLC, which are usually considered the most egregious by gamers in general, not just Nintendo fans.

"you didn't hear tons of Nintendo fans complaining about Nintendo back then like you do now..."
That's probably because the internet wasn't as big back then, so there was nowhere to complain. In reality, many fans were mad about Wind Waker's style. At launch, fans were mad about the launch games (no Mario, no Zelda). A lot of people didn't like Sunshine and complained about that too. I'm pretty sure there's even a group of Metroid fans mad about Metroid Prime because they're hardcore 2D Metroid fans. Fans were also mad about Twilight Princess. Point is, fans being mad at Nintendo is nothing new. Because of Nintendo's legacy, and the extensive history (and library) of their IP's, they probably have a harder time pleasing fans than any other developer.

@Turbo857 No matter how much sugar you use, you have to pay firstly full price for Super Smash Bros. 4 on both platforms (without cross-buy or any discount), secondly you pay for the characters, thirdly you pay a little more if you want the characters on both versions. Finally, you pay €1 if you want to use the 3DS as a Wii U controller. It's absolutely shameless.

@TrueWiiMaster Then why don't you pay attention to my Super Smash Bros. / Street Fighter V / Killer Instinct comparison? In case you did not read it (and deliberately ignored that part) here it goes: "Super Smash Bros. 4 for example, you have to buy additional characters. On Street Fighter V you can get the additional characters for free by just playing the game, even though they are post-launch characters. On Killer Instinct 3 you can get the whole game for free and pay only for the characters you want. Nintendo is currently the worst of the three as far as DLC is concerned. They even charge you twice for the same games (and DLC) even if you are a Wii U and 3DS supporter and you connect both consoles through NNID".

Can we all take a moment to revel in the fact that a simple, anecdotal article about high returns of SFZ has turned out over 450 comments rehashing Nintendo's past, present and future?

@arnoldlayne83

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUvBYs5bVcM&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IceMIN7wzAk

Just what the... Attack of the clones...

@Yorumi @SharkAttackU Kudos to NIntendo Life for scandalising people like that.

No, seriously, what were they going to talk about until April next year otherwise?

@VanillaLake There's always Paper Mario: Color Splash!

@VanillaLake
I did read it. I just didn't think it was much of a point. In SFV's case, the total roster, including every DLC character, is half the initial roster of SSB. SFV's DLC is making up for a severely lacking roster, whereas SSB had an extensive roster to begin with. It's also worth mentioning that SSB has almost triple the number of stages as SFV, not counting SSB's DLC stages. Killer Instinct is basically a free-to-start game, but if you want the full game (which is what you need to talk about if you're comparing it to SSB, which is a full game) you'll need to spend at least $60, and even then you'll only have a roster just over half the size of SSB's (without DLC).

@TrueWiiMaster Well, all is relevant, not only the parts that suit your opinion better. About the fighting games, not really, Supreme Edition includes EVERYTHING for €60, all characters, all costumes, two bonus games, EVERYTHING. And it has not any clones unlike Super Smash Bros. 4. SFV is just getting started... It saddens me to see people justifying Nintendo's stingy policies.

@InternetBowser Yeah, unfortunately he can be quite ridiculous in more recent Mario games, but the nickname is great.

Star Fox Adventures was old Rare's swansong indeed. I love it. Looking forward to both Yooka-Laylee and Sea of Thieves, I really hope both are great games.

@Yorumi

"when the wii had a drought at the end it sure did the wiiU a lot of good, or the 3ds. Why was iwata apologizing for the launch of very single nintendo console?"

Good question. Hmm... I would say, higher than usual price points for both systems mixed with confusing marketing to communicate the value of the products. This especially hurt the Wii U a lot more, obviously. In business, you take risks. Not everything is guaranteed to be an immediate success. But hey, at least a Pres like Iwata actually apologies. I'd like to see Konami or EA's CEO express this kind of humility.

"If they had to essentially cancel 2 years of wiiU production to have a decent launch does that mean we get a few good games and then a massive drought?"

It's possible... but not too long ago it was reported that Nintendo was consolidating their hardware divisions so they'd be working more closely together - meaning future portable and home consoles may have the same operating system (giving credit to the hybrid console theory). Nintendo droughts have been a popular long time complaint so I'm sure they're planning to have a steady flow of games after the initial launch... just in case third party support fails to fill in the void. I mean... they don't really have a choice at this point but to do just that.

@VanillaLake

Cross-buy or a discount would've been nice but the games aren't completely the same (3DS Smash players can't play agains Wii U Smash players). But I also don't remember paying anything to use the 3DS as a controller for Wii U Smash. Buy hey, owners of both versions got Mewtwo for free. That was a cool bonus.

However, I do share your regret that the same VC games have to be bought twice in order to be enjoyed on both systems (3DS and Wii U). Let's hope NX get's some sort of unified subscription service or somethin' to ease the pain. I can't count how many times I've bought Punch-Out on VC : o. And I don't like that digital releases cost the same as retail versions. But admittedly, Nintendo isn't the only guilty party.

"On Killer Instinct 3 you can get the whole game for free and pay only for the characters you want. Nintendo is currently the worst of the three as far as DLC is concerned."

Nintendo is hardly the only game company that's offered additional characters as DLC for a fighting game. It's quite a common practice. Playstation Allstars, Mortal Kombat X, and Injustice: Gods Among Us has done this. Tecmo/Koei's also sold additional characters as DLC for DW: Gundam 3 and Reborn, Hyrule Warriors, and Ken's Rage 2. Common price is usually only $5 a character.

@TrueWiiMaster

Ah, good point. People have been saying Zero's been barebones but that title belongs to Street Fighter V. They'd better offer free characters after releasing that game in the empty state it was in!

@Turbo857 "Ah, good point. People have been saying Zero's been barebones but that title belongs to Street Fighter V. They'd better offer free characters after releasing that game in the empty state it was in!"

Splatoon was also bare bones at launch and Super Mario Maker kind of for being a €50 level editor. And Mario Tennis: Ultra Smash and that one was not even fixed.

@InternetBowser Yeah, I also hope for a new Banjo-Kazooie game as I think they are the greatest video game characters ever.

@Yorumi

And regardless of their droughts they still have devoted fans talking about them in forums. Hey, if you feel like the battered wife that's decided to divorce the abusive husband... noone's stoppin' ya. Right now, we've had ups and a few downs but I think I can afford to give the husband another shot to make things right. If the NX fails, hopefully you'll let me sleep on your couch while I go through divorce proceedings

@VanillaLake

"Splatoon was also bare bones at launch and Super Mario Maker kind of for being a €50 level editor." And both games received a very healthy amount of free DLC, for a very long time. Not a bad show of support for a company that's abandoned its Wii U owners, huh?

@Turbo857 Same for SFV and KI3 (and not for Mario Tennis Ultra Smash). You (and TrueWiiMaster I think) started the whole comparison.

@Syrek24 Personally I see the appeal of the game but can also understand why it's gone down this way. Different always comes under fire. It's not always good. It's almost never good in fact. This game aims at the nichest of gamers.

As for the comments I would do my usual drinking game but as my good buddy @rjejr knows, I would be on my 10th regeneration by now.

@VanillaLake

Admittedly, that was a different comparison between fighting games. You were knockin' Smash's paid DLC while crediting SFV's free DLC, which are two different scenarios. Smash Wii U released jam packed with content and SFV was barebones. Capcom did right offering free DLC as did Nintendo with Splatoon's case.

@Turbo857 All I see is you trying to justify everything Nintendo does even though it is a rip-off compared to what is offered elsewhere...

@VanillaLake I think you're missing the part where Super Smash Bros 4 without DLC comes with far more content/characters than Street Fighter V has even after it's DLC.

What you're arguing against Turbo857 is an incredibly flimsy point which falls apart the moment you actually look at what you get for what you pay. What's the point?

@VanillaLake

It all depends on the initial content given for the full priced game at retail vs. the price for additional content. There's bad DLC and there's good DLC. If code is on the disc and has to be unlocked from a paid DLC code... that's bad DLC. If it's additional content added onto a jam packed offering... it's usually good DLC. But come on, ya gotta give me credit for criticizing double purchases for VC games in order to be played on more than one hardware device. You make me sound like some sorta a biased commenter.

Granted, I've never purchased Smash costume DLC. .75 cents is a bit too much for a reskin imo. But, I don't waste energy complaining about it, I just use my money for something else worthwhile. Most of Nintendo's DLC offerings have been pretty solid imo, especially Hyrule Warriors.

@Turbo857 @Dr_Lugae No, you are wrong, SFV characters are free. And the whole KI bundle with all characters and costumes and the two classic KI games cost €60. SMB4 (and Hyrule Warriors) is a rip-off if you compare the DLC price and the no-cross-buy to what is offered elsewhere, no matter how you say it. This is starting to get repetitive.

@VanillaLake Super Smash Bros 4 without any DLC bought by far still a better value proposition than the entirity of SFV and the entirity of Killer Instinct(X1) whether or not the DLC characters are free or not doesn't matter if the games are still smaller.

It's getting reptitive because you're being evasive and trying to avoid acknowledging what the base Smash Bros 4 offers.

@Dr_Lugae "Super Smash Bros 4 without any DLC bought by far still a better value proposition than the entirity of SFV and the entirity of Killer Instinct(X1)"

That is probably the most biased sentence in the whole thread until now (and it's false).

@VanillaLake
It's not a matter of what fits my opinion. It's a matter of your examples not working for your argument. Street Fighter V has very few non-DLC characters to start with (what was it? 17?). Without that free DLC (and quite a bit more in the future), the game would be very lacking. It's kind of like what Nintendo did with Splatoon. It was light on content on release, with plans for free content going forward. If Nintendo had made that content paid DLC, Splatoon would have been vastly overpriced for just the initial game. As it is, SFV is nowhere near retail value, especially compared to SSB. Maybe if it hits 30+ characters, that will change.

"About the fighting games, not really, Supreme Edition includes EVERYTHING for €60, all characters, all costumes, two bonus games, EVERYTHING."
That's what I said, except I said it in dollars. To get the complete Killer Instinct game, you need to pay $60, the same retail price as SSB (though as a digital-only game, Killer Instinct is also less prone to discounts or sales; I could get SSB for $48 at Best Buy, for example). Even with the complete version of Killer Instinct, SSB still has quite a few more characters, though (even discounting the "clone" characters and DLC). You do get those two classics, though. That's a nice bonus.

@VanillaLake
"What you can't deny is that SMB4 is the most expensive of the three."
All three go for $60 (KI can be more if you don't buy the bundle). At that price, SSB has by far the most characters and the most stages. Are you denying this?

@BLPs 10th regeneration

I could start calling you David Tennant.

How's the rehab going, they give you any good pills to pop? Don't mix booze with the pills, not good. Moderation is always key.

@rjejr I have Matt Smiths hair and the attitude of 12...

Someone break out the damn Banham merchant already. This place has become more of a dick waving contest than the PC gaming crowd from what I've heard.

Some people feel justified in their purchases, others don't, it's all an individuals perception of value and wealth. They are entitled (oh that's a dangerous word my back hurts from all this privilege, come at me Internet I'm sick of your horsecrap) to their opinion and quite frankly if you don't like it's fine but don't shout down their necks because they have an opinion and would like you to appreciate their side as they do yours. Just get on with your short miserable ltitle lives and GET THE HELL OVER IT! People have different opinions than you and that is fine with over 7 billion little sacks of carbon on this rock not everyone is going to agree with you. If it's that damn important to you that "Nintendo is bad value" or "Star Fox takes getting used to" or "Waffles are superior to pancakes but only on days beginning with T every other week" then fine but trying to force that onto others as fact is God damn dictatorship!

tl;Dr the community has turned into monkeys flinging their poop at each other until one gives up and can establish dominance over the females and produce the strongest offspring.

And the rehab is going fine, still sore as hell but it's healing. Check up on Tuesday so I'll let ya know. Still bleeding though..

@TheDavyStar The one in Carlisle is atrocious.
They wanted £39.99 for a used copy of Zelda Ocarina of a Time 3D.
Good to hear elsewhere they appear to better.

@BLPs
Fully agree...

Alrighty then, what a mess.

PLEASE learn to ignore other users you disagree with, arguments like this shouldn't be a common occurrence. If someone is harassing you or calling you names just report the post and someone will be in to help asap.

@VanillaLake
@LJliger99
@SLIGEACH_EIRE
@Dr_Lugae
@greengecko007
@arnoldlayne83
@Tasuki

For transparency's sake I'm banning Vandy and his alternate account for flaming users on several different occasions on this thread. If anyone has and concerns please use the contact form, as I'll be removing any traces of this whole conflict.

@Danksparce Wow that was some cleanup. Over 100 posts removed. Must have took you ages.

@SLIGEACH_EIRE

About a half hour.

@BLPs Well NL comments certainly can't be helping with the healing process. Gotta watch the blood pressure.

@Danksparce It's a shame. Someone should be able to freely post that they like or dislike something, and if others disagree, they should be able to do so in a constructive way that sparks conversation. I think most people are guilty of getting a little heated sometimes, but obviously harassing people and coming up with conspiracy theories is crossing a line.

While I don't necessarily agree with deleting the incident that occurred, at least it shows that you care about trying to make the comment section a place where we can at least try to be civil with each other. So thanks.

I don't necessarily agree with deleting comments either because they show each user's attitude and this thread became epic somehow (@arnoldlayne83 the #500 mark is gone), but a moderator is needed for example to delete or change curse words and I appreciate that, so thanks.

While it's true that ignoring someone is a good strategy (as long as your words and intention are not manipulated in order to make you look bad in front of the people), even when I ignored him he got mad because I did not reply and, while I'm sure will still be present in one form or other (...), I hope people don't feel intimidated and keep expressing their opinions freely.

@rjejr Well if it keeps bleeding it keeps bleeding. Change the dressing every other day anyway

Still all that stuff that happened shouldn't stop us from saying what we feel. And if someone is indeed harassing us or just being far too beyond persistent to know when to stop. Well there is that report link there.

Still everyone's stance on this game and Nintendo itself in general stands, including my own.

You can't compare FIFA, Madden or CoD to Star Fox because those are yearly games that come out every year whereas Star Fox takes about 11 years or so for a new title so when you see a game such as Star Fox Zero being returned there's definitely something wrong with it. And that's obviously, the motion controls. God forbid that Nintendo would include traditional controls to play the game rather than forcing the customers who bought the damn game to play the way they wanted, I honestly don't know what would have been the problem allowing to have two control schemes - Motion controls and Traditional controls.

Nintendo must think that they can blend both gaming audiences into one and then everyone will love it. Wrong.

I traded in the game for the price I paid so I didn't lose any money anyway. Shame on you, Nintendo.