Yeshua concieved at Hanukkah born at Sukkot

Tishri1 · Dec 10, 2008

Got this Email from my friend today, just in case many havent seen this explanation of how Yeshua could have been conceived this time of year

BIRTH OF YESHUA DURING SUKKOT
An Excerpt From the Book:
Rosh HaShanah and the Messianic Kingdom to Come
copyright © 1989, Joseph Good, all rights reserved
An easy to document, but not well known fact, is the date of the birth of Yeshua. This is done by establishing several things:

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The date that Gabriel the angel tells Zechariah, the soon to be father of Yochanan, about his sons birth. (The birth date of Yochanan (John) is established by going forward nine months, the term of pregnancy).

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The approximate date of Miriams (Marys) conception.

·[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]The date of Herods death.

-The date that Gabriel the angel told Zechariah that he and his wife were going to have Yochanan is established from the following:
Luke 1.5 states that Zechariah is a priest of the course of Abijah. King David, according to I Chronicles twenty-four, had divided the priestly families into twenty-four groups. Each group was called a course, and named after the head of that particular family. Each course served for one week in the first half of the year, and for another week the second half of the year. This was in addition to the weeks of Hag haMatzah, Shavuot, and Sukkot, when all the courses were required to be present (Deuteronomy 16.16). Therefore, the first course served the first week of the year (Aviv); the second course, the second week; then all the courses, the third, because it was Hag haMatzah, and so on. I Chronicles 24.10 lists the course of Abijah as the eighth course. This course would serve the tenth week of the first half of the year, having allowed two weeks for Hag haMatzah and Shavuot. It is at this time that Zechariah receives the prophecy of Yochanans birth.
And it came to pass, that, while he executed the priests office before G-d in the order of his course, according to the custom of the priests office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the Temple of the L-rd. And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense. And there appeared unto him an angel of the L-rd standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And when Zechariah saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not Zechariah: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name Yochanan.

Luke 1.8-13
Due to the laws of separation (Leviticus 12.5;15.19,25), two additional weeks have to be counted. Allowing for this and going forward a normal pregnancy, the time of Yochanans birth (if this is the first half of the year) would be approximately Pesach, when it is expected that Elijah will appear.
- Six months following Elizabeths conception, the angel Gabriel is sent to Miriam (Mary), the cousin of Elizabeth.
And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from G-d unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, to a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgins name was Miriam (Mary). And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the L-rd is with thee: blessed art thou among women. And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Miriam (Mary): for thou hast found favour with G-d. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call His name Yeshua. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the L-rd G-d shall give unto Him the throne of His father David: And He shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of His kingdom there shall be no end.

Luke 1.26-33
Starting at Chanukkah, which begins on Kislev 25 and continues for eight days, and counting through the nine months of Miriams pregnancy brings one to the approximate time of Sukkot.
-The question arises, How can it be known that Zechariah was given the prophecy about Yochanan in the first half of the year rather than the last? The key is found in the life and death of King Herod. Herod, a man hated by the Jewish people, figures prominently into the birth of Yeshua. In Mattatiyahu (Matthew) two he is visited by wise men from the East.
Now when Yeshua was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, saying, Where is He that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen His star in the east, and are come to worship Him.

Mattatiyahu (Matthew) 2.1-2
From the information in this passage, it can be understood that the wise men are Jewish. While the verse does not tell how many wise men there are, it does give reference to where they were from. In the Bible, the land of the East is always the land of Babylon (see Genesis 29.1; Judges 6.3). During the first century C.E., the largest Jewish population was in Babylon. These people were the descendants of the captivity of Nebuchadnezzar. Even though Ezra, Nehemiah, and others had returned, most of the people had remained behind. The fact that the wise men are looking for the Jewish messiah, who was only expected by the Jewish people, should be noted. A prophecy relating to the Messiah that only the Jewish people were aware of is found in the book of Numbers.
I shall see Him, but not now: I shall behold Him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.

Numbers 24.17
Because of the prophecy, a star was related to the coming of the Messiah. An example of this is seen when, about one hundred years after the time of Yeshua, Rabbi Akiva mistakenly proclaimed a military leader to be the Messiah. He was titled Bar Kochba, which means Son of the Star.
The rabbis or the sages were known as the chakamim, which means the wise men. The sage Daniel was referred to by this same title. A related word, mag is also used for wise men. The Greek magi is taken from the Babylonian word mag, which has a number of meanings. It is true that the word does mean astrologer; however, this is not its only usage. The same word is used for scientist, counselor, or scholar. It is an obvious conclusion, then, that the Jewish sages or wise men from Babylon, knowing the prophecy of Numbers 24.17, relating it correctly to the Messiah, and having seen His star, traveled to Jerusalem to do homage.
Herod was possibly one of the coldest and most bloodthirsty men who ever lived. He killed his sons, his favorite wife, and thousands of innocent people. His fear of losing his throne drove him to insanity. Augustus Caesar, having noted that Herod observed Jewish Law and therefore would not eat pork, once made the statement that it was better to be a pig in the house of Herod than to be one of his sons. It is no surprise that Herod sought the childs life, nor that all of Jerusalem would be troubled as Herod received this news.
When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.

Mattatiyahu (Matthew) 2.3
Traditional teaching is that the wise men appeared about a year to eighteen months after the birth of Yeshua. This has been based upon Herods killing of the male children under two years, according to the date that the wise men had given him for the appearance of the star.
Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, inquired of them diligently what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also. Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.

Mattatiyahu (Matthew) 2.7-8,16
It was the custom in ancient Israel to count the years of ones age from the date of conception; therefore, Herod actually killed the children one year old and under according to the way that age is calculated today. In fact, the wise men arrive in Jerusalem either just prior to or at the time of Yeshuas birth.
It is important to note that up to this time, no one in Jerusalem, including the Temple priest, had heard that Yeshua had been born. Knowing the nature of Herod, and his practice of having spies throughout the countryside, it is impossible that he would not have heard of his birth. Lukes account of the birth relates the experience of the shepherds of Bethlehem, who after seeing the newborn Yeshua, broadcast what they have seen and heard to the entire region.
And when they had seen it, they made known abroad the saying which was told them concerning this child.

Luke 2.17
Realizing that Bethlehem is within five miles of Jerusalem makes it very improbable that Herod or the Temple priest would be ignorant of His birth. Further proof is seen in that forty days after the birth of Yeshua, Miriam (Mary) carries Yeshua to the Temple for her purification and His dedication. It is here that two well known individuals within the Temple compound and make known prophesy concerning the child.
And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the L-rd; (As it is written in the law of the L-rd, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the L-rd And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the L-rd, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons. And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Ruach haKodesh, that he should not see death, before he had seen the L-rds Messiah. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Yeshua, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed G-d, and said, L-rd, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him. And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Miriam his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age, and had lived with a husband seven years from her virginity; And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served G-d with fastings and prayers night and day. And she coming in that instant gave thanks likwise unto the L-rd, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Luke 2.22-38
Having realized that it is impossible for the wise men to arrive after these events, it can be assumed that they must have spoken to Herod about the time of His birth. Traveling on to Bethlehem, they found the child and His parents in a house, (Mattatityahu 2.11); whereas, in the Luke account the shepherds found Him in a stable (Luke 2.7,16). There is no discrepancy between these two accounts, for likely the new mother and child were moved from the stable following the birth. The fact that He was born in a stable is a clue to the time of His birth, for in Hebrew a stable is called a sukkah (Genesis 33.17). Sukkot, the name of the festival, is the plural form of this word. It is even significant that they had to seek cover in the sukkah due to no room in the inn (Luke 2.7). It was only during the three pilgrim festivals (Pesach, Hag haMatzah, and Shavuot) that Bethlehem would overflow with people. The thousands of pilgrims coming to Jerusalem for the festivals would spill over to the surrounding towns. In ancient times, reporting for a census would be done over a several month period due to the difficulties of travel, as well as the economics of an agricultural society. It is highly improbable that so many people would be in Bethlehem for Caesars census all at one time.
As stated above, Joseph and Miriam (Mary) bring the child into Jerusalem forty days after Yeshuas birth. This indicates that Herod died within this same forty days. The chronology of these forty days is imperative in correctly finding His birth date. The probable scenario is this: Joseph and Miriam (Mary) come to Jerusalem for the festival of Sukkot (September or October), planning to stay in the nearby Bethlehem in order to register for the census. Unable to find a room at the inn, they are given shelter in a stable, which just happens to be a Sukkah. During the night the wise men arrive in Jerusalem and speak to Herod. Meanwhile, Miriam gives birth. The heavenly host appear to the shepherds, proclaiming that the Messiah has been born. They go to pay Him homage in the stable, while the wise men are making their way to Bethlehem. The shepherds leave to noise it abroad, and Miriam is moved to a house. The wise men arrive and during the night are warned by G-d concerning Herod. Joseph and Miriam take the child and flee to Egypt and remain there until they are told by G-d that Herod is dead. On returning to Judea, they dedicate Yeshua according to the Law, receiving the prophecies of Anna and Simeon. After this, they turn aside into Galilee, where they will live.
It is apparent that as long as Herod was alive, they could not appear at the Temple. Therefore, if the approximate date of Herods death could be determined, it would establish the season of Yeshuas birth. The Jewish historian, Josephus, who lived during the first century C.E., documents in detail Herods death.
Josephus relates that Herod became very ill immediately following an act of impiety against the priesthood, at which time an eclipse of the moon occurred.This eclipse, the only one mentioned by Josephus, happened March 13 in the year of the Julian period 4710, and the fourth year before the Common Era. Herods illness lasted several months and is documented in great detail as being painful and distressful. Many times cures were sought and brought about temporary relief; however, nothing prevented imminent death. According to Josephus calculations, Herods death occurred about September, in the fourth year before the Common Era. Therefore, with the knowledge that Herod died in autumn, the same time of year as Sukkot, and that his death was within forty days of the birth of Yeshua, it is established that Yeshua was born at this time of year.

something to think about

Eben Abram · Dec 10, 2008

Shalom Alecheim

LOL Ole Joe stole it, I'll give you the source, no it is not me.

Give me a day need to back track VERY old records.

Eben

Eben Abram · Dec 10, 2008

Birth of Yeshua (Jesus) during Succoth

By Hillel ben David (Greg Killian)

[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] In this study I will attempt to show how we can learn the birth date of Yeshua from the Bible. Many have said that Mashiach could not have been born on December 25. While these reasons may be true, there is a deep mystical reason why the Catholic Church chose this date. We will explain this after we have determined the Mashiachs true birth date, because this is critical to understanding the mystical reason for December 25 as His birth date.

Ok, so when was Yeshua born? To figure this out, we will need to look at the Tanakh[1] and begin to understand the way that King David structured the services in the Temple. Our starting point is:

Luqas (Luke) 1:5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.
From this we learn that Yochanan (John) the Baptist's father was part of the Levitical priesthood family known as Abijah. Since Zechariah was a priest, we know that Yochanan was also a priest of the family of Abijah. Next we learn when Abijah served during the biblical year:

I Divrei HaYamim (Chronicles) 24:1 These were the divisions of the sons of Aaron: The sons of Aaron were Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar. But Nadab and Abihu died before their father did, and they had no sons; so Eleazar and Ithamar served as the priests. With the help of Zadok a descendant of Eleazar and Ahimelech a descendant of Ithamar, David separated them into divisions for their appointed order of ministering. A larger number of leaders were found among Eleazar's descendants than among Ithamar's, and they were divided accordingly: sixteen heads of families from Eleazar's descendants and eight heads of families from Ithamar's descendants. They divided them impartially by drawing lots, for there were officials of the sanctuary and officials of God among the descendants of both Eleazar and Ithamar. The scribe Shemaiah son of Nethanel, a Levite, recorded their names in the presence of the king and of the officials: Zadok the priest, Ahimelech son of Abiathar and the heads of families of the priests and of the Levites--one family being taken from Eleazar and then one from Ithamar. The first lot fell to Jehoiarib, the second to Jedaiah, The third to Harim, the fourth to Seorim, The fifth to Malkijah, the sixth to Mijamin, The seventh to Hakkoz, the eighth to Abijah, The ninth to Jeshua, the tenth to Shecaniah, The eleventh to Eliashib, the twelfth to Jakim, The thirteenth to Huppah, the fourteenth to Jeshebeab, The fifteenth to Bilgah, the sixteenth to Immer, The seventeenth to Hezir, the eighteenth to Happizzez, The nineteenth to Pethahiah, the twentieth to Jehezkel, The twenty-first to Jakin, the twenty-second to Gamul, The twenty-third to Delaiah and the twenty-fourth to Maaziah. This was their appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of HaShem, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as HaShem, the God of Israel, had commanded him. As for the rest of the descendants of Levi: from the sons of Amram: Shubael; from the sons of Shubael: Jehdeiah. As for Rehabiah, from his sons: Isshiah was the first. From the Izharites: Shelomoth; from the sons of Shelomoth: Jahath. The sons of Hebron: Jeriah the first, Amariah the second, Jahaziel the third and Jekameam the fourth. The son of Uzziel: Micah; from the sons of Micah: Shamir. The brother of Micah: Isshiah; from the sons of Isshiah: Zechariah. The sons of Merari: Mahli and Mushi. The son of Jaaziah: Beno. The sons of Merari: from Jaaziah: Beno, Shoham, Zaccur and Ibri. From Mahli: Eleazar, who had no sons. From Kish: the son of Kish: Jerahmeel. And the sons of Mushi: Mahli, Eder and Jerimoth. These were the Levites, according to their families. They also cast lots, just as their brothers the descendants of Aaron did, in the presence of King David and of Zadok, Ahimelech, and the heads of families of the priests and of the Levites. The families of the oldest brother were treated the same as those of the youngest.
There were twenty-four (24) courses or families of priests. Abijah was the eighth course. King David divided them and gave them instructions concerning the time they were to serve. King David did not make up these services or divisions, but rather HaShem instructed him in the way that He desired.[2]

HaShem's Spirit showed David how he was to divide the Priests and how they were to serve:

I Divrei HaYamim (Chronicles) 28:11-13 Then David gave his son Solomon the plans for the portico of the temple, its buildings, its storerooms, its upper parts, its inner rooms and the place of atonement. He gave him the plans of all that the Spirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple of HaShem and all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of the temple of God and for the treasuries for the dedicated things. He gave him instructions for the divisions of the priests and Levites, and for all the work of serving in the temple of HaShem, as well as for all the articles to be used in its service.

The following verse indicates that the length of service for each of the twenty-four courses was seven days in the spring and seven days in the fall:

I Divrei HaYamim (Chronicles) 9:1-26 All Israel was listed in the genealogies recorded in the book of the kings of Israel. The people of Judah were taken captive to Babylon because of their unfaithfulness. Now the first to resettle on their own property in their own towns were some Israelites, priests, Levites and temple servants. Those from Judah, from Benjamin, and from Ephraim and Manasseh who lived in Jerusalem were: Uthai son of Ammihud, the son of Omri, the son of Imri, the son of Bani, a descendant of Perez son of Judah. Of the Shilonites: Asaiah the firstborn and his sons. Of the Zerahites: Jeuel. The people from Judah numbered 690. Of the Benjamites: Sallu son of Meshullam, the son of Hodaviah, the son of Hassenuah; Ibneiah son of Jeroham; Elah son of Uzzi, the son of Micri; and Meshullam son of Shephatiah, the son of Reuel, the son of Ibnijah. The people from Benjamin, as listed in their genealogy, numbered 956. All these men were heads of their families. Of the priests: Jedaiah; Jehoiarib; Jakin; Azariah son of Hilkiah, the son of Meshullam, the son of Zadok, the son of Meraioth, the son of Ahitub, the official in charge of the house of God; Adaiah son of Jeroham, the son of Pashhur, the son of Malkijah; and Maasai son of Adiel, the son of Jahzerah, the son of Meshullam, the son of Meshillemith, the son of Immer. The priests, who were heads of families, numbered 1,760. They were able men, responsible for ministering in the house of God. Of the Levites: Shemaiah son of Hasshub, the son of Azrikam, the son of Hashabiah, a Merarite; Bakbakkar, Heresh, Galal and Mattaniah son of Mica, the son of Zicri, the son of Asaph; Obadiah son of Shemaiah, the son of Galal, the son of Jeduthun; and Berekiah son of Asa, the son of Elkanah, who lived in the villages of the Netophathites. The gatekeepers: Shallum, Akkub, Talmon, Ahiman and their brothers, Shallum their chief Being stationed at the King's Gate on the east, up to the present time. These were the gatekeepers belonging to the camp of the Levites. Shallum son of Kore, the son of Ebiasaph, the son of Korah, and his fellow gatekeepers from his family (the Korahites) were responsible for guarding the thresholds of the Tent just as their fathers had been responsible for guarding the entrance to the dwelling of HaShem. In earlier times Phinehas son of Eleazar was in charge of the gatekeepers, and HaShem was with him. Zechariah son of Meshelemiah was the gatekeeper at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. Altogether, those chosen to be gatekeepers at the thresholds numbered 212. They were registered by genealogy in their villages. The gatekeepers had been assigned to their positions of trust by David and Shmuel (Samuel) the seer. They and their descendants were in charge of guarding the gates of the house of HaShem--the house called the Tent. The gatekeepers were on the four sides: east, west, north and south. Their brothers in their villages had to come from time to time and share their duties for seven-day periods. But the four principal gatekeepers, who were Levites, were entrusted with the responsibility for the rooms and treasuries in the house of God.
The week of service began and ended on the Sabbath:
II Divrei HaYamim (Chronicles) 23:1-8 In the seventh year Jehoiada showed his strength. He made a covenant with the commanders of units of a hundred: Azariah son of Jeroham, Ishmael son of Jehohanan, Azariah son of Obed, Maaseiah son of Adaiah, and Elishaphat son of Zicri. They went throughout Judah and gathered the Levites and the heads of Israelite families from all the towns. When they came to Jerusalem, The whole assembly made a covenant with the king at the temple of God. Jehoiada said to them, "The king's son shall reign, as HaShem promised concerning the descendants of David. Now this is what you are to do: A third of you priests and Levites who are going on duty on the Sabbath are to keep watch at the doors, A third of you at the royal palace and a third at the Foundation Gate, and all the other men are to be in the courtyards of the temple of HaShem. No one is to enter the temple of HaShem except the priests and Levites on duty; they may enter because they are consecrated, but all the other men are to guard what HaShem has assigned to them. The Levites are to station themselves around the king, each man with his weapons in his hand. Anyone who enters the temple must be put to death. Stay close to the king wherever he goes." The Levites and all the men of Judah did just as Jehoiada the priest ordered. Each one took his men--those who were going on duty on the Sabbath and those who were going off duty--for Jehoiada the priest had not released any of the divisions.
So, the week of service began and ended on the Sabbath.

In addition to their normal service, the Priests, all twenty-four courses, served for three extra weeks during the year:17
Devarim (Deuteronomy) 16:16 Three times a year all your men must appear before HaShem your God at the place he will choose: at the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the Feast of Weeks and the Feast of Tabernacles. No man should appear before HaShem empty-handed:

Now we need to do some arithmetic:

Twenty-four courses times 1 week equals Twenty-four weeks that have been served by the twenty-four courses. Then we add the three extra weeks when all Twenty-four courses served. We now have covered Twenty-seven weeks.

A biblical year consists of twelve lunar months, of 29.5 days, which total 354 days. This is eleven days less than a solar year, of 365 days. This means that we have to cover Twenty-four more weeks. Thus we can deduce that each course served a week at the beginning of the year, and a week at the end of the year. The Mishna agrees with this conclusion.1
(The number of days that differ from a lunar and a solar calendar, are made up by adding a leap month every two or three years. I do not yet know how the priests served these extra days.)
Each course, therefore, served for one week twice a year, and three weeks a year they all served. Each course, therefore, served a total of five weeks during the year.

Between the first and the eighth week of the year, two of the three times when all twenty-four courses served, intervened.

PT1

Eben Abram · Dec 10, 2008

The eighth course would, therefore, serve during the tenth week having allowed for the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Weeks, which both occur during the first eight weeks of the year. This is the second Sabbath of Sivan, and the week that follows (approximately Sivan 12-18).

Elizabeth conceived Yochanan (John) the Baptist AFTER Zechariah had finished his Temple service. So, she would have become pregnant after the third Sabbath of Sivan (approximately Sivan 19-25):
Luqas (Luke) 1:23 When his time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
If you go forward forty weeks, for a normal pregnancy, we see that Yochanan (John) the Baptist was born on Passover. We would expect that this pregnancy would be perfectly normal because this is the mark of HaShem's handiwork, perfection!

It is interesting that Yochanan (John) the Baptist was born on Passover, because one of the rituals of the Passover is to set a special place setting, for Elijah, and to open the door to welcome Elijah. Mashiach said that Yochanan (John) the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come!

Matityahu (Matthew) 11:7-15 As Yochanans disciples were leaving, Yeshua began to speak to the crowd about Yochanan: "What did you go out into the desert to see? A reed swayed by the wind? If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings' palaces. Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is the one about whom it is written: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.' I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than Yochanan (John) the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. From the days of Yochanan (John) the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it. For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until Yochanan (John). And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. He who has ears, let him hear.

Exactly six months after Yochanan (John)'s conception, Mary conceives Yeshua:
Luqas (Luke) 1:23-33 When his time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people." In (Elizabeth's) sixth month (of pregnancy), God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, To a young woman pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Yeshua. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, And he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."
If Yochanan (John) the Baptist was conceived in the eleventh week, the third Sabbath week of Sivan, Yeshua would have been conceived six months later in the month of Kislev. Mary would have conceived Yeshua after the third Sabbath of Kislev, approximately Kislev 19-26. Kislev 25 is Chanukah.

It is noteworthy that Mashiach, the "light of the world", was conceived on the festival of lights (Chanukah)!

So, six months after Yochanan (John) the Baptist is born, Yeshua is born. Therefore, since Yochanan (John) was born on the fifteenth day of the first month (Nisan), Yeshua (Yeshua) would be born on the fifteenth day of the seventh month (Tishri)...six month later. The fifteenth day of the seventh month is known as Succoth, or the Feast of Tabernacles. By the way, that day was a full moon. In fact, the fifteenth day of every Biblical month is a full moon.

Yeshua (Jesus) was born on Succoth (The Feast of Tabernacles)!

We find an allusion to Yeshua's birth during Succoth in Yochanan's gospel:

Eben Abram · Dec 10, 2008

Yochanan (John) 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling (succah) among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Remember that a major theme of Succoth is JOY! With this in mind ...

Luqas (Luke) 2:4-11 So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, And she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn. And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Mashiach the Lord.

And ...

Matityahu (Matthew) 2:7-12 Then Herod called the Magi secretly and found out from them the exact time the star had appeared. He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child. As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him." After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen in the east went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was. When they saw the star, they were overjoyed. On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to go back to Herod, they returned to their country by another route.

First Year

Name

--------------------------

Nisan

Iyar

Sivan 25 - Yochanan (John) the Baptist is conceived.

Tammuz

Av

Elul

Tishri

Heshvan

Kislev 25 - Yeshua is conceived. (Chanukah)

Tevet

Shevat

Adar

Second Year

Name

---------------------------

Nisan 15 - Yochanan (John) the Baptist is born (Passover)

Iyar

Sivan

Tammuz

Av

Elul

Tishri 15 - Yeshua is born (Feast of Tabernacles)

Heshvan

Kislev

Tevet

Shevat

Adar

Difficulty

If each course served for a week in the spring and a week in the fall, how do we know that Yeshua was not born at Passover?

There are two ways to understand the answer. If we started our count during the eighth week of the fall term, then John the Baptist would be born at Succoth and we would not have the connection with Elijah at Passover. In addition, we would not have the connection of Yeshua being conceived at Chanukah.

That said, it is still possible that Yeshua was born at Passover. This does not present an insurmountable problems because of the bi-modality of the year. The triennial Torah reading cycle also suggests that in some way Passover and Succoth are alike.

* * *

Eben Abram · Dec 10, 2008

Ok, Yeshua was born on the festival of Succoth. So, when is Succoth? I am glad you asked that question. The following dates detail when we celebrate Succoth for the next few years:

Succoth Tishri 15, 5768 - Sep 27, 2007
Shemini Atzeret Tishri 22, 5768 - Oct 4, 2007
Simchat Torah Tishri 23, 5768 - Oct 5, 2007

Succoth Tishri 15, 5769 - Tue, Oct 14, 2008
Shemini Atzeret Tishri 22, 5769 - Oct 21, 2008
Simchat Torah Tishri 23, 5769 - Oct 22, 2008

Succoth Tishri 15, 5770 - Oct 3, 2009
Shemini Atzeret Tishri 22, 5770 - Oct 10, 2009
Simchat Torah Tishri 23, 5770 - Oct 11, 2009

Succoth Tishri 15, 5771 - Sep 23, 2010
Shemini Atzeret Tishri 22, 5771 - Sep 30, 2010
Simchat Torah Tishri 23, 5771 - Oct 1, 2010

* * *

The Torah reading, in the first year of the triennial cycle, for the Sabbath closest to Yochanan (John) the Baptists conception is: Bereshit (Genesis) 15:1-21

This Torah portion recounts HaShems promise of a son to Abraham.

The Torah reading, in the first year of the triennial cycle, for the Sabbath closest to Yeshuas conception is: Bereshit (Genesis) 42:18 - 43:23

This Torah portion recounts the story of Josephs brothers discovery of treasure in their sacks after they bought food in Egypt. The Haftorah portion is: Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 50:10 - 52:11

This Haftorah portion says: ... Then shall the redeemed of HaShem return to Zion...

The Context

The birth of Mashiach did not happen as an independent event. It happened in time and within the context of world history which had been carefully prepared for this event. To begin to understand the context of His birth, I recommend that you examine other events that occurred at the time of His conception and birth. His birth was no accident. It is important to see Mashiachs birth within the context of Succoth. In fact, I would suggest that it is impossible to understand the birth of Mashiach without celebrating Succoth. Further, we must see Succoth within the context of all the festivals in a year. This context will reveal some very interesting perspectives.

One other perspective will also help: The Biblical year is bi-modal such that spring is a mirror image of fall. This is most evident within the festivals as we explored in my study titled rains. This bi-modality is also evident in the ancient Torah reading cycle commonly known as the triennial cycle. There are two such triennial cycles of three and a half years in a Sabbatical, or Shmita, cycle. There is an example of this ancient reading cycle at shmitatc.

Why was December 25th chosen by the Catholic church for the birth of Yeshua? There are two answers to this question. The first answer is the answer most commonly given. The second answer is a Jewish mystical answer that is almost never given.

The reason why the Catholic church chose December 25 has to do with the pagan festival of Saturnalia. I am not going to give the details about this festival, but it is instructive to note that most of the current customs of Christmas are borrowed from the celebration of Saturnalia. This reason is quite well known and is documented in many sources.

Those who have studied the Torah have understood a far deeper and more interesting mystical reason as to why the birth of the Mashiach was assigned to December 25. To understand this reason we will need to review a bit of Latin.

What is the meaning of September? In Latin, septem means seven and septimus means seventh; September was in fact the seventh month of the Jewish, or Biblical calendar. This calendar was in use by the whole world for most of the worlds existence. In 153 BC, the Romans reordered the calendar but kept some of the names that provided a hint as to its earlier origins. Remember that the Torah originally used numbers for the names of the months rather than actual names. The names in the current Jewish calendar were taken from Babylon by Chazal to provide us with a remembrance of our exile. In days to come, the numbered months will be restored by Mashiach.

What is the meaning of October? In Latin, octo means eight, reflecting the fact that October was the eighth month of the year.

What is the meaning of November? In Latin, novem means nine. November was the ninth month of the year.

What is the meaning of December? In Latin, decem means ten. December was the tenth month of the year.

Now that we have had our Latin lesson we can understand the December 25 can be understood as the twenty-fifth day of the tenth month. In fact, this is the terminology of the Torah. Now if we switch our brains from the Roman calendar to the Jewish calendar, we can relate to the fact that the twenty-fifth day of the tenth month is an allusion to Chanukah, which began on the twenty-fifth day and ended in the tenth month (Kislev 25 through Tevet 1 / 2). Recall that Chanukah was when Yeshua was conceived.
HaShem gave the Gentiles a hint that they could easily understand. He was hinting to Chanukah. To make the message even clearer, He gave the Gentiles the custom of decorating their Christmas trees and homes with lights. What do lights have to do with Christmas? Well, lets see; there was the star Hmmm. Ok, so, what do lights have to do with Chanukah? I am glad you asked! Chanukah is also known as the Feast of Lights because of the miracle of the lights of the menorah in the Temple. Remember that the Maccabees had only enough pure oil to last for one day. Yet, when they kindled this one cruse of oil it burned for seven days! We celebrate this miracle by kindling a progression of oil lights in our homes for the eight days of Chanukah. Thus we see that the lights of Gentiles point to Chanukah.

Some may say that Yeshua was The Light of the World; quoting from John 8:12 or John 9:5. They thus suggest that the Mashiachs birth is a cause for the lights. What is really interesting about this argument is the fact that when Yeshua proclaimed that He was the light of the world, was during Succoth. During Succoth, four huge lamps were set up in the courtyard of the women. The Talmud [3] says that there was not a courtyard in all of Jerusalem that was not illuminated by these lamps. The wicks were made from the worn-out priestly garments. Yeshua proclaimed Himself to be the light of the world while the people were gazing at the four lights which were called the light of the world. This quote, then, is not as fitting for Christmas as it is for Succoth, the day of Mashiachs birth.

To further strengthen the connection of December 25 to Chanukah, it is useful to note that the Christmas holiday is celebrated by many from December 25 through January 1. This, too, is an eight day period which corresponds to the eight days of Chanukah.

Now, you know the real reason why December 25th was chosen as the date of the Mashiachs birth. Even though it is NOT when the Mashiach was born, it contains enough hints that the discerning student could use to find his way away from Christmas. It contained all the hints needed to cause him to celebrate Succoth and Chanukah as being HaShems dates, rather than celebrating mans made up date of December 25.

Finally, it is worth nothing that Yeshua never celebrated Christmas. He never put up a Christmas tree. He never went to midnight mass or any Protest service on Christmas.

Yeshua did, however, celebrate Chanukah:

Yochanan (John) 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication (Chanukah), and it was winter. 23 And Yeshua walked in the temple in Solomons porch.

Yeshua did celebrate Succoth (Feast of Tabernacles):

Yochanan (John) 7:1 After these things Yeshua walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him. 2 Now the Jews feast of tabernacles (Succoth) was at hand. 3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest. 4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready. 7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil. 8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come. 9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee. 10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.

Paul then made the comment that should weigh heavily on all those who do not celebrate Succoth and Chanukah:

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Mashiach.

Let us become imitators of Mashiach!

* * *

This study was written by Hillel ben David

(Greg Killian).

Greg is pretty good though I would watch the conclusions at times on other POV's He has. He is Scholistic, but like we all, Knowledge only can make some trails we might not want to travel, ask Solomon.

Eben

Skeeterbug · Dec 11, 2008

Yeshua said to remember his death instead of his birth but this is interesting though

dvd_holc · Dec 11, 2008

I wrote this for a friend a little while ago...

(NIV) Luke 1:5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lords commands and decrees blamelessly.

Zechariah was a priest of the division of Abijah. Priesthood was composed of 24 divisions set forth by King Solomon which is recorded in 1 Chronicles 24:7-18. It was during one of the two times for the division of Abijah to perform the priest duties within the Holy Place that the Gabriel, a seraphim angel, appeared to Zechariah prophesying the birth of John.

It was after the completion of one of the two periods for the division of Abijah that John was conceived, (Luke 1:23). The first period for this division to serve is in the 8th week and the 32nd week. The exceptions to this order were the three annual feasts in which all of the priests served, Passover (Pesach), Pentecost (Shavuot), and Tabernacles (Sukkot); however, the Text does say it was during one of times, but one of his regular priestly duty times.

Now, Luke 1:26 says that Elizabeth was in her sixth month of pregency when Mary visited her. So then, this puts Jesus and John six months apart. If John being conceived somewhere during the third week of Sivan this puts Jesus to being conceived during late Kislev. In late Kislev, the Festival of Lights (Hanukah [extra-biblical festival]) is celebrated. Jesus is called the Light of the World, John 8:12, 9:5, & 12:46. You add 6 months to the fifteenth of Nisan, we get fifteenth of Tishri, the first day of Sukkot. Therefore, Jesus and John were either in Unleavened Bread or in the seventh month.

Further evidence that John was born at the time of Passover is in the Passover Seder, the order of the Passover meal. In the Seder, there is a time when a child goes and opens the door to allow Elijah to come in. Also, there is a cup placed for Elijah. It was understood in that time, that Elijah would come before the Messiah.

Now, when Jesus was born (NIV) Luke 2: 8 says:
And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night.

In the land of Israel, there are two kinds of land: 1) farming 2) shepherding. The shepherds land is the wilderness. Bethlehem is a border between the farm lands and the wilderness. In the first century, they had a strict division between the land that could cultivated for farming and the wilderness because you dont want flocks eating up the crops. Therefore, shepherds were not allowed to bring their flocks into the fields except for one time of year, harvest season. After the harvest, shepherds were allowed to go into the fields to eat the leftovers. Also, in the process, the flocks would fertilize the fields. All of this had to before the rainy season which is winter to spring. (This is discussed in the Mishnah under damages).

Now, there are two harvests. The first is the wheat/barley which is from First Fruits to Shavuot. The second is from Shavuot through to Sukkot for the fruit. Because Passover the beginning of the harvest, this constrains the birth of Jesus to be during 7th month; the fall season. Also, Johns birth is about the time of festival of Unleavened Bread and most likely the day of Passover.

I remind you that he claimed we dont know the seasonit was fall, but let me continue.

Now, the ritual to be practiced for Sukkot is discussed in Lev 23:33-43 and Deut. 16:13-17. Sukkot is one of the three pilgrim festivals. It is to be practiced in a temporary shelter which Joseph and Mary were in (though I am not sure the rabbis would accept it as a sukkat it is defiantly a temporary lugging).
John 1:14 states that the Word became flesh and dwelt with us. The dwelt here is Skenoo which is the same Greek word used in the Septuagint for tabernacle. In Jewish Holiday, Michael Strassfeld suggests reading Psalms 27, 31, 34, 36, 57, 63, or 91 as Sukkot activities. I cant tell you they recited those psalms during Sukkot in the first century but...

Psalm 57:2 I cry out to God Most High, to God, who vindicates me. 3 He sends from heaven and saves me, 5 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let your glory be over all the earth. 9 I will praise you, Lord, among the nations; I will sing of you among the peoples. 10 For great is your love, reaching to the heavens; your faithfulness reaches to the skies. 11 Be exalted, O God, above the heavens; let your glory be over all the earth.

Psalm With long life I will satisfy them and show them my salvation (בִּישׁוּעָתִי).

KJV Luke 2:9-14 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

(Side note: The journey would have contributed to Mary giving birth.) Last time the Glory of God tabernacled with Israel it was on Sukkot when the Glory filled the House (2 Chron. 5:3, 7:1, & 7:8). The angels said a Savior is born who is the Messiah. A savior does not connote to being the Messiah, but the Messiah is the Savior. During the Sukkot, the people would wave palm branches and shout Hosanna! O Lord save us! What they specifically pray for is the rain, but God sent them a Savior during a time of great joy, and the way He sent them the Savior is the way that as if the Savior was dwelling with them when they were praying, Save us!

Also, Israel was waiting for their Messiah to arrive and deliver them from being ruled by Rome. Further, Sukkot is a time only time that Gentiles are to be joyful with Israel.

Connotation of the gentiles with Israel is in the Messiah:

Zech. 14:16Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.
There are 70 sacrifices during Sukkot, and 70 is symbolic of the all gentiles (nations). Likewise, Sukkot is thought of the beginning of the Messianic era, ref Jewish Holidays page 146. Further, the nations celebrating Sukkot was in connection to the Messiah. Now it is important to note that, KJV captures a threefold blessing that is for the whole world (including the nations) whereas the NIV puts it a two fold blessing aimed a particular sect. Now this is taken from Brad Youngs The Jewish Theologian:

In the larger Jewish background of the text, Flusser has noticed also the strong similarities the threefold text of Luke shares with traditional liturgical blessings. For example, there is the description of the praise of the angels in Isaiah 6:3, when they cry out, Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is filled with His glory. The Lord is called holy three times. The three 3 part structure of blessings as well as the rule of threes in storytelling is well-known characteristic of folktales and a familiar literary device. In the praise of the angels who surround the heavenly throne, the word holy is used three times in Isaiah. The Aramaic Targum of this passage provides insight into the ancient Jewish understanding of the text of Isaiah. Moreover, it forms a remarkable parallel to Luke 2:14. Again a three-part structure emerges from the song of the angels. The Targum of Isaiah says, 1) Holy in the highest heaven, the house of His Presence 2) Holy upon the earth, the work of his might 3) Holy for the endless ages is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of the brightness of his glory....The message of the angels for the birth of the Messiah is universal. The all-powerful God of heaven seeks to establish peace on earth and express his merciful will for all people. His divine favor is provided for all humanity. To understand fully the good tidings of the angels, one must recall the Hebrew meaning of peace (shalom). It is wholeness and completeness. Jesus is said to be the Prince of Peace.

Now, the covenants were designed to be a restoration of the whole created order and beneficial not just one sect or people group but all created beings. After the end of the seventh day of Sukkot (on the eight day) there is another special day, Simhat Torah. This is the ending of one cycle of Torah and beginning of another cycle. The beginning of Torah is, of course, with Genesis. Mark and John both have a Genesis motif. Likewise, Simhat Torah is thought of embracing Torah by the people and referred to as the fulfillment of Torah. Jesus came to fulfilled the Torah, Matthew 5:17. Isaiah 7:14...The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Further, Pages 118-9 of King of the Jews by D. Thomas Lancaster:

The cloud of glory is also associated with the Festival of Sukkot. Based upon the Aramaic version of the Torah, some of the sages referred to the Feast of Sukkot as the Feast of the Clouds; specifically, the cloud of glory that sheltered Israel in the wilderness. The Talmud records one opinion that the sukkot in which the Israelites of the wilderness lived were none other than the cloud of glory that went before the hosts of Israel. R. Eliezer said, It has been taught: I had the Israelites live in Sukkot. These Sukkot were clouds of glory. (b. Sukkah 11b)

This association is based on the Aramaic translations of the Torah called Targums. The Targums translate the Hebrew sukkah with a word that can mean clouds (metalya). The double meaning of the Aramaic word led the sages to interpret the structures of the Feast of Booths as symbols for the cloud of glory (i.e. the Divine Presence) that overshadowed Israel in the wilderness.

Therefore, with the combining of all of thisJesus was born on Sukkot. Now, I did not ignore the census or other stuff; just did not mention it. And I hope I did not disappoint. J

Henaynei · Dec 12, 2008

yes, there are many evidences that point to His birth being during Sukkot.... and His conception at Khanukah....

Light came into the world and Dwelt with us.... Blessed be His Name

Lotuspetal_uk · Dec 13, 2008

Thanks you guys - I recall reading something like this many years back but never bookmarked it. Now I've been able to make a permanent record this time round.

visionary · Dec 13, 2008

I love it... this great truth.. may it be spread to all nations and given to all who believe on His name.

Eben Abram · Dec 14, 2008

Shalom Alecheim

While many and I do mean most, take the story of Channukah at face value, I know better and some who get deeper inot it do too.

However, as the feast of dedication, as the menorah in Jerusalem was lit, and none of the traditions associated with that feast seem to be practiced in Channukah, I do take exception to any reference of Messiah being a 9 or 8 branched deviant menorah.

That is false, as is the oil story.

But, as to the date and the actual Feast of dedication that after temple was destroyed and in the diasporah with mysticism attached to it became the modern tradition Channukah,

I accept the original, not the Jewish Christmas version.

Sorry, but the dedication feast, though not a seven feast day unot the Lord, was in fact a minor rememberance day that in Old Temple was a great and magnificent celebration that bears no resemblance to Channukah now.

The only thing the same is the date, and in that I can celebrate the date, not the legal gambling, or the distorted menorah, or the retelling the contrived miracle, or the Polluted priesthood that killed a jew in the Name of G-d....

ahhh I would rather take Christmas......,

So you see, the conception is marvelous as the Only Temple of God, Messiah, was conceived on when the Light went out and was not brought back by a phony oil miracle, but by the Light of the World who would be the Menorah of G-d, as He came into the World.

When he did, of course the temple was vacant of the glory of G-d for G-d had come and now the glory was contained in flesh. Immanuel.

Eben

johnd · Dec 14, 2008

Eben Abram said:
Shalom Alecheim

While many and I do mean most, take the story of Channukah at face value, I know better and some who get deeper inot it do too.

However, as the feast of dedication, as the menorah in Jerusalem was lit, and none of the traditions associated with that feast seem to be practiced in Channukah, I do take exception to any reference of Messiah being a 9 or 8 branched deviant menorah.

That is false, as is the oil story.

But, as to the date and the actual Feast of dedication that after temple was destroyed and in the diasporah with mysticism attached to it became the modern tradition Channukah,

I accept the original, not the Jewish Christmas version.

Sorry, but the dedication feast, though not a seven feast day unot the Lord, was in fact a minor rememberance day that in Old Temple was a great and magnificent celebration that bears no resemblance to Channukah now.

The only thing the same is the date, and in that I can celebrate the date, not the legal gambling, or the distorted menorah, or the retelling the contrived miracle, or the Polluted priesthood that killed a jew in the Name of G-d....

ahhh I would rather take Christmas......,

So you see, the conception is marvelous as the Only Temple of God, Messiah, was conceived on when the Light went out and was not brought back by a phony oil miracle, but by the Light of the World who would be the Menorah of G-d, as He came into the World.

When he did, of course the temple was vacant of the glory of G-d for G-d had come and now the glory was contained in flesh. Immanuel.

Eben

G-d love this guy!

Eben, you purist mensch, you!

Does everyone see why I love this guy?

He doesn't hold back. He speaks truth, G-d's truth. And he doesn't hold back for any reason. Matthew 13 (Yeshua's State of the Union address) would have read like Hebrews 11 (the Hall of Faith) had there been more like Eben Abram in Jewish leadership down through the millennia!

My brother, your tribe increase!

anisavta · Dec 14, 2008

Frankly I would rather celebrate a fake miracle at the feast of dedication rather than winter solstace and the worship of a baby (who by the way grew up and became King of Kings and L~rd of Lords and was born at Sukkot). I'm glad on my birthday everyone has allowed me to grow up and they celebrate the years I have been alive rather than keep reminding me that I was a baby who cried (or in Yeshua's case smiled all the time and never cried.)

johnd · Dec 15, 2008

anisavta said:
Frankly I would rather celebrate a fake miracle at the feast of dedication rather than winter solstace and the worship of a baby (who by the way grew up and became King of Kings and L~rd of Lords and was born at Sukkot). I'm glad on my birthday everyone has allowed me to grow up and they celebrate the years I have been alive rather than keep reminding me that I was a baby who cried (or in Yeshua's case smiled all the time and never cried.)

Point taken. But, Eben is right in that if nothing else, it was incumbent upon Judaism to stick to the aleph and the tav. Not that I dismiss the Gentilic mishandling of the truth / the faith yea these past 2000 years, were it not for such variations and variances (dating back to Exodus 18), nearly all habenai Yisro'el would be leading the Messianic charge across the globe spreading the love of G-d since 2000 years ago.

No offense.

I just wish it had been different for all the dear Jews loved by God who were denied the knowledge of Messiah much more his embrace by such seemingly minor deviations in course heading... as any navigator will say puts the ship well off course in a brief matter of time.

I'm getting all choked up... sorry.

Tishri1 · Dec 15, 2008

Most of us know there is no factual account of the Miracle of Hanukkah (the oil) but oh my what a glorious account of Yeshua conceived on this wonderful night.....He is The Light of the World :clap:

Eben Abram · Dec 15, 2008

Shalom ALecheim

Lest any presume JohnD and I haven't disagreed, I can say, we have gone toe to toe and eye to eye and disagreed with both of us still friends and his invitation to shabbos in my home in the kingdom never rescinded.

We have strongly and passionately made our points and often misunderstood, perhaps, for a season the heart of each other.

But Light is not mistaken, for even the blind were given sight by Messiah and He and I uncovered always the greater Truth that He that is in both of us is greater than He or I appear to be to each other or in the World.

As such still, Messiah, Y'shua, the Jesus we know and the Moshiach yet to be known, even Y'shua who came, Did commend a certain leader of men who happened to be a Gentile and said,

I have not found greater faith in all of Israel, speaking that the Roman Centurion was of a greater aspect of Faith in waht G-d could do than the High Priest, Saul, the nation of Israel, the Sadducees, the Pharisee's and frankly even John called the greatest of all prophets and even his own Disciples.

I may not say JohnD is that man, but I can say that they are related/

No greater faith have I witnessed to the Truth and Stand for the Light inspite of all hardship and time constraints as well as every reason to be discouraged and cease to speak to a people who choose to not see or listen than John D.

He has maintained in the Volume of all the posts, Past (which I include all boards) Present and I know of a certainty, future, a dynamic, solid and mature rationale of the Witness His Words are of not only Who G-d is, but waht G-d has done.

If all were so, we would not be here, but the Kingdom is well done in the name of this his Son, JohnD.

Eben

Tishri1 · Dec 15, 2008

Yeh I think hes an adorable guy too and a great friend as well, we will miss him when hes not with us :hug:

anisavta · Dec 15, 2008

And I do agree with you that both rememberances have been sorely humanized. We can't take a simple festival as the feast of dedication or day Messiah was born and not romantisize it. But is that not our creative processes at work? And instead of putting the emphesis on the dedication part of Hanukkah (which it means anyway) we turn it into a psudo Christmas gift giving holiday.
But the addition of lights went way back - Josephus mentions it. Is there proof that this miracle did not happen? Could not HaShem do something like this? Is this not in His character to provide in such a way to restore His Glory and Holiness to His Temple? Just curious.

Eben Abram · Dec 15, 2008

Shalom Alecheim

To save time and controversy, and it is in another folder, or will be, Yes, there is and it is well known it is contrived.

That being said, I still remind people knowing the facts, and Truth, does not stop you from Choosing a Appropriate Celebration for you and your own, I just say, whether Christmas or Channukah, tell the truth, it is greater as Truth than making up stories in either Tradition to perpetuate myths on both sides.

AND FOR HYPOCROSY sake, NEVER

Dump on the One, without admiting the same on the other, other wise a hypocrite is a hypocrite, Jewish or Gentile or Messianic.

I say, enjoy in a Way G-d can show ALL of them, as I do, or..... which ....and how ......and what......... you can from which ever you desire and Seek G-d to lead you to employ and enjoy......... as well as allow in your home.

I never saw a Channukiah yet convert a person to Messianic, or a Christmas Tree turn a Jew into a Christian, it's what YOU DO, that counts.

Eben

Yeshua concieved at Hanukkah born at Sukkot

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Skeeterbug

Guest

Senior Veteran

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Member

Well-Known Member

Never Forget!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Never Forget!

Member

Similar threads