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The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Each week on The Assignment, host Audie Cornish pulls listeners out of their digital echo chambers to hear from the people whose lives intersect with the news cycle. From the sex work economy to the battle over what’s taught in classrooms, no topic is off the table. Listen to The Assignment every Monday and Thursday.
What It's Like to Cover a Presidential Candidate Up-Close
The Assignment with Audie Cornish
Mar 18, 2024
Audie talks with journalists Amy Chozick and Abby Phillip about being a reporter on a presidential campaign bus. Amy is the creator and executive producer of the new Max dramedy “The Girls On The Bus,” which follows a group of four women on a fictional campaign trail. Amy covered Hillary Clinton’s campaigns for the Wall Street Journal and the New York Times. CNN’s Abby Phillip was a consultant on the show, she is the host of NewsNight with Abby Phillip.
“The Girls On The Bus” is streaming on Max (which, like CNN, is part of Warner Brothers Discovery).
Episode Transcript
Audie Cornish
00:00:00
I remember trying to be like, when should we have a kid?
Amy Chozick
00:00:03
Same.
Audie Cornish
00:00:03
This is primary season, but the general election is here. So if we do it at such and such a time. And I was like, I can't believe I'm doing this now.
Amy Chozick
00:00:11
No, off cycle babies are a real thing.
Abby Phillip
00:00:12
'One-hundred percent.
Amy Chozick
00:00:12
Yeah, everybody will get pregnant.
Abby Phillip
00:00:14
There was a lot of family planning happening on the bus in 2016.
Audie Cornish
00:00:19
When I tell you that joining the campaign trail as a reporter means giving up major parts of your life, I'm not joking. There really isn't an official campaign trail. That term describes the literal and metaphorical route a candidate takes to get their message to voters. But being "on the bus" and "on the trail" is a double metaphor. It refers to the posse of reporters that follow the candidate from city to city, and the culture that surrounds them. Because over time you become a club with a shared language. The "file" is the room where you can sit. The "pen" is where you're cordoned off at events. The fundraiser is known as the "Bag Man," who ignores you. The candidate's personal assistant or "body man," who might not. A shared etiquette develops: do grab an extra sandwich. Don't hog the power outlets. I've done that job, and so have my two guests today sharing this Assignment. Amy Chozick, she covered politics for the Wall Street Journal and The New York Times. She's best known for her memoir, Chasing Hillary, about covering Clinton's presidential runs. And that book inspired a new Max TV show, The Girls on the Bus. Joining us, another alum from those campaign years, CNN anchor Abby Phillip. She was a consultant on the show.
Abby Phillip
00:01:38
And I've known Amy since I was a cub campaign reporter, 2016?
Amy Chozick
00:01:44
2016.
Abby Phillip
00:01:45
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:01:46
The vintage days of 2016
Abby Phillip
00:01:47
I know, I know, that was not my first. I mean, it was that was like not super early in my political career, but it was the first time I was like, really on the bus with the campaign reporters and we were covering Hillary.
Audie Cornish
00:02:02
And you started when Amy?
Amy Chozick
00:02:04
I started covering Hillary in 2007. I covered her through the primary 2008 primary, and then I switched to Obama. Covered him through the general, early years of the Obama White House. And then I was put back on the Hillary beat in 2015 and covered her 2016 campaign. With Abby. In fairness, we all knew Abby was going to be a star. I could just tell in those long stretches in Iowa. There's something special about Abby and, uh, yeah, so we met. And you form, you form very tight relationships when you're stuck on a bus with someone for, for that long in a in a complicated, sometimes dark campaign.
Audie Cornish
00:02:38
I do have the experience of doing this pre social media. Not pre 50s. Everyone settle down. But like pre I was, I didn't follow them on the railroad.
Amy Chozick
00:02:49
Were you on the McGovern Bus?
Audie Cornish
00:02:50
I was, I was, it was a rough time. It was more that. Let's just put it this way. I remember my first campaign proper having a BlackBerry. And when the plane took off.
Amy Chozick
00:03:01
I miss a BlackBerry.
Audie Cornish
00:03:02
'Everyone raised their arms into the air because you had to keep the Wi-Fi going until the very last minute, and then you were dead. Okay. And it was like, if you didn't file, if you didn't do whatever. And this was also during the period when newsletters are kicking into high gear like ABC's The Note, etc.. And so the reason why I bring this up is because these are the elements that start to accelerate the pace of reporting. And I could hear some of the older reporters on the bus complaining about it. Right. Fast forward to me watching your show. And that's literally the show.
Amy Chozick
00:03:40
That is very much the perspective we're bringing to these characters, right? Especially Sadie McCarthy, the kind of old school print reporter she's been romanticizing this era of The Boys On The Bus, right? They filed once a day. They talked to the can– They went got drinks with the candidates. And like, after you filed, it was just like, you're this rollicking party and it's like, oh, by the time they let women of minorities on the bus, we have to file all the time. The news industry is dying. Yeah. And you're like, can't have no fun. And the candidates completely ignore you.
Audie Cornish
00:04:06
It's like being the Black president in a disaster movie. It's like you're Morgan Freeman. That's my fear. You get there and it's like, surprise, asteroid.
Amy Chozick
00:04:14
Yes. And that's something actually, an Obama aide had told me early on. It's "but, God, by the time women and minorities get to the presidency. The role has been vastly diminished." I think it's something that's sort of universal around industries. But of course, we're looking at journalism and as you said, like the campaign bus has completely changed, probably starting with your BlackBerry story. You know, 2008 was very similar. By 2016, everyone was afraid that you're going to go viral on Instagram. And certainly now, especially in Donald Trump, you have a candidate who circumvents the media entirely and goes directly to his voters and speaks directly through them with social media. So the role of the bus has vastly changed. And I think our girls, specifically Sadie, because she's like an old soul, she like really wanted to write words that matter. And now by the time she gets her dream, people are saying, nobody believes anything in your newspaper anyway. Like, what is truth?
Abby Phillip
00:04:57
Even as this this show is about the future and about the present. It also feels kind of vintage already. I mean, this cycle that we're in 2024 is the second completely non traditional presidential cycle where there's basically no bus.
Amy Chozick
00:05:14
Right.
Abby Phillip
00:05:14
Right.
Audie Cornish
00:05:15
Oh talk more about that.
Abby Phillip
00:05:16
There's basically no press corps. Like even what we experienced in 2016, what folks would have experienced certainly in 2008, in that cycle. The embed reporters are flying basically on their own by themselves. The candidates are essentially incumbents on both sides. They are treated like incumbents on both sides. They have a built in kind of entourage around them that keeps them in the tightest of bubbles. And even when I was covering 2020 before Covid, even the candidates who probably were not entitled to be in a bubble were in bubbles. So the campaign is already changing.
Amy Chozick
00:06:00
Yeah.
Abby Phillip
00:06:01
From what this show depicts in a wild way that has completely, I think, upended what you get from the bus.
Audie Cornish
00:06:11
Traditionally, air quotes the traveling press corps. You're in a group and you quite literally are traveling together en masse like to this hotel, to that Embassy Suites, to that Marriott. Sometimes the campaign is involved in that wrangling. I've certainly been on a bus where all of a sudden the wrangler, so to speak, comes on and says, "this bus is leaving in ten minutes, and if you're not back, we're leaving without you." Right? And or they provided the lunch or etc. and I had the experience of traveling to multiple campaigns. I was often the angel of death. I was sent to your campaign when it was dying.
Abby Phillip
00:06:49
Oh, we love that job I've done that.
Audie Cornish
00:06:50
You've done that job?
Amy Chozick
00:06:52
You don't want me on your campaign
Audie Cornish
00:06:53
Okay.
Amy Chozick
00:06:54
I'm a campaign killer.
Audie Cornish
00:06:55
And you also walk into the clique of that traveling press corps.
Abby Phillip
00:07:01
Right.
Audie Cornish
00:07:01
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Amy Chozick
00:07:02
Yes, oh, I switched over from from Hillary in '08, it was very much like, oh, my, I don't know any of them. And they all know each other. And yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:07:09
'People sit. I remember sitting down in an airplane seat and someone being like, oh that's so-and-so's seat. From TIME Magazine. And I was like, am I in a lunch room? Because I'll be triggered. I don't have the ability to deal with this.
Amy Chozick
00:07:22
That's what it feels like.
Audie Cornish
00:07:23
For you, what was that like? How social was it?
Amy Chozick
00:07:27
Well, it's funny you say that because when I started, I was I had been a foreign correspondent in Japan when my boss at the Wall Street Journal, he'd been Asia bureau chief, he became Washington bureau chief. And he called me and said, how did you like to go to Iowa and cover Hillary Clinton? I'd been in Tokyo for two years, so I was like, I hardly knew who Obama was. I didn't know what the caucus was. Of course, nobody really understands what the caucus is. So I was not alone in that. But when I arrived, there was like, real who is this girl? Like? Like, you know, the Washington reporters know each other. They roll in the same circles. They're taking sources to the same restaurant. I didn't know any of that world. So there was a real I felt like. And also, I still, in fairness, dressed like a Japanese teenager. So I very much felt like the weirdo.
Audie Cornish
00:08:04
You are, in fact, wearing plaid pants right now.
Abby Phillip
00:08:05
That's true.
Amy Chozick
00:08:06
That's fair.
Abby Phillip
00:08:07
I was like, this tracks
Audie Cornish
00:08:08
And the nameplate necklace. Yeah, yeah, you brought it.
Amy Chozick
00:08:13
So I did very much feel like the outsider. Like, I think that actually made my stories better in some ways, because I didn't have access to all the, like, scoops that everyone was chasing. So I saw things that maybe other reporters like, I did a front page story for the Wall Street Journal about campaign hookups, you know, like it's like, of course people hook up on campaigns, but like, readers don't. I was like, really? Readers don't know that. So I did some fun, I think outsider pieces, which was what my editors wanted at the time.
Audie Cornish
00:08:37
But when you say outsider, I think of something. Just to give an example, because you bring up the campaign hookups, a lot of the TV show is about that social aspect of it and the physical and emotional connections that can grow that I think to outsiders, they see access journalism kind of everything that is wrong with journalism.
Amy Chozick
00:08:55
Right? Right.
Abby Phillip
00:08:56
Well, these are people and they're spending a ton of time together in kind of crappy situations.
Amy Chozick
00:09:04
We're eating, getting turkey sandwiches thrown at you.
Abby Phillip
00:09:06
That's the thing about being on the campaign is that you you're you're bonding under pressure.
Audie Cornish
00:09:14
And we should say that in part because there's so much dead time.
Abby Phillip
00:09:17
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:09:17
So you there's your travel time
Abby Phillip
00:09:20
You're just sitting around.
Audie Cornish
00:09:20
Then you might see the candidate for a minute, and then there's another long wait, maybe while they're in with the fundraiser
00:09:24
Yes, we'd like see Hillary's blonde bob, and then you'd be like.
Audie Cornish
00:09:28
They, they're in a living room and now you're waiting outside, right? Like there's a lot of waiting.
Abby Phillip
00:09:32
And from cycle to cycle, you're spending a lot of time with the the the body man, okay?
Audie Cornish
00:09:38
The body man is quite literally the guy who's like, you need a pen, hands the candidate a pen. You need an orange juice.
Amy Chozick
00:09:43
Hand sanitizer
Abby Phillip
00:09:43
And you're standing in a hallway and they're, you know, and and so all of that downtime, I think produces weird stuff and weird closeness and that's real. I mean, and how much access it really gets you, I think is very questionable, but.
Audie Cornish
00:09:59
There's your home newsroom. Then there's your actual home. And then there's a space in between with all of these people who you work with slash compete with.
Amy Chozick
00:10:10
'That's the very interesting layer to all of these friendships, right? It's like I knew everything about these girls lives and we'd share everything about each other. And it's like, don't look at my -- is Annie looking at my screen? Don't look at my screen. I don't want you to. I don't want you to hear my phone call.
Abby Phillip
00:10:21
Amy was the one. Just as an example, when I was in 2016, she was the one who would disappear and you're like, oh, crap, where did Amy Chozick go? She's gonna go have a scoop. And then there would be a scoop the next morning on the front page of The New York Times. So it was like, you know, whenever you see someone like Amy disappear on the bus, you know, it's because something is coming.
Amy Chozick
00:10:42
You go in the bathroom to make a call.
Amy Chozick
00:10:44
And I remember at one point I was very new, and I would file my reports because I was the radio person. And then I'd get on the bus and they might be playing NPR. And now everyone on the bus has heard my take on the day.
Andrea Seabrook on NPR
00:10:58
NPR's Audie Cornish was at that rally in Reno. And, Audie, how much of Obama's speech today was devoted to tying McCain to Bush?
Audie Cornish on NPR
00:11:06
'Probably a good 90% of it. Senator Obama took to the stage, and the first thing he did was thank people for sending well-wishes to him and to his grandmother and how much it meant to him.
Audie Cornish
00:11:17
'And I felt so self-conscious about it. And you know what I mean?
Amy Chozick
00:11:24
That's cool. You're narrating the race.
Audie Cornish
00:11:26
Yeah, but for people who are in the room. Right? And I did feel sometimes like, oh, no, am I starting to write for the people that I'm traveling with.
Abby Phillip
00:11:35
And that's true. You you do write for those people. I actually it's such a good point because reflecting on it, one of the things that I kind of did not like a lot of times about the press corps environment was that it was so insular, and sometimes I felt like I was chasing stories because it was what my peers would have cared about. But then I would question, does anybody else care about this? Does it really matter? Or is it just like a status thing to try to make the other reporters on the bus feel like I am connected, or like I know what's going on?
Amy Chozick
00:12:15
To Abby's point, what I saw in 2016 that I didn't see in 2008 is not only trying to impress the kind of navel gazing of the bus, but also like, to me, that's Twitter. It's like, what's going to get them in 2016, it was like, oh, what's going to get the most traffic? And it's like, but that doesn't even really that doesn't reflect the country. And I think to Abby's point, you're like in this bubble, you go through Secret Service and actually on set, this was really important to me. Like everyone has to get swept before they go on the bus. So it's very hard to talk to actual voters, like in Iowa and New Hampshire in the early primary states. You could really get in there. But like once you're traveling in like 20 different states, it was very hard to talk to voters and get out of the security bubble. And so it's weird you're going and you're only seeing one side, right?
Audie Cornish
00:12:54
So describe a typical event. You land at, let's say, a New Hampshire restaurant diner, because the candidate is going to do a visit. And what happens?
Amy Chozick
00:13:02
The bus pulls up, you're like, you're already swept by Secret Service. You have to stay in the bubble. You're like, ushered into the restaurant or usually a high school gym.
Audie Cornish
00:13:09
And the bubble is literally just the perimeter around the bus. You're using all the terms
Amy Chozick
00:13:12
Sorry, sorry. Yes.
Audie Cornish
00:13:13
It just means.
Amy Chozick
00:13:14
It means you haven't ventured out where someone could, like, give you a weapon that you bring in close contact.
Abby Phillip
00:13:18
I mean the bubble is really whatever they say it is. So basically you stay in their eyeshot and you're clean so you don't have to get swept again. And as long as you're in the bubble, you're good and you can continue with the candidate.
Audie Cornish
00:13:33
And getting swept, wanded, etc. takes time.
Amy Chozick
00:13:37
It does. And they have to sniff your bags and there's a lot of time they'll find some marijuana gummies in there, but they don't care about that. They're looking for weapons. The dogs are sniffing your bags every day. But I think.
Audie Cornish
00:13:47
This is all before you enter said diner.
Amy Chozick
00:13:49
Right? Or high school gym? Usually high school gym. And the thing is, is like when I first pitched this to producers, I was like, and we go to Miami, we go to Vegas and they're like, this is sounds so expensive to make. And I was like, no, no, no, we don't see the country. You see the inside of a bus.
Abby Phillip
00:14:02
You don't see those cities.
Amy Chozick
00:14:02
No no, no. You see them maybe out the window like, oh, you're like, there's the arch in St. Louis. How pretty like so. And then you're going into the high school gym. You're hearing the same speech that we basically had memorized. How much can we talk about the 3D printer, right? And then you're like, immediately wrestled back into the bus.
Audie Cornish
00:14:16
And so when you're in the event you're, what they call you're in the pen air quotes.
Amy Chozick
00:14:21
Yes like a press file.
Audie Cornish
00:14:22
So, again, you're using a term that makes it sound really impressive.
Amy Chozick
00:14:26
No, it's folding tables.
Audie Cornish
00:14:28
It's folding chairs and folding tables where we as press are allowed to sit because we're still in the bubble.
Abby Phillip
00:14:35
Yeah. I think the point of being in the bubble as a campaign reporter is to understand the candidate's evolution and decision making. It's not the best place to understand what's going on in the electorate. And that's the that's the tradeoff
Audie Cornish
00:14:51
But do you even have access to that, though, if you don't have access to the candidate.
Abby Phillip
00:14:54
I think that there's a lot of observation that happens. Yeah. I mean Amy is a Clintonologist. Like she literally understood Hillary Clinton better than I think any reporter who covered her in over the course of a couple cycles. And that's what you get when you spend a lot of time with a candidate.
Audie Cornish
00:15:14
But you're saying you had that Clintonology, so to speak, from the entire atmosphere, not from her, because you talk a lot about not connecting with her.
Abby Phillip
00:15:23
Well a little bit from her too I mean.
Amy Chozick
00:15:26
You observe her like everywhere you go, it's to your diner and your bowling alleys and all of these things, and you overhear all of her conversations.
Abby Phillip
00:15:32
And every once in a while, she would come back on the plane and talk to us for a few minutes. And it wasn't a lot. But you learn a lot about a person. You talk to people who are very close to them. You find out what kind of moods they're in, what, what they're happy about, what they're sad about. Like, you learn a little too much about the candidate at a certain point, and you start to also read the tea leaves in a way that's probably unhealthy.
Amy Chozick
00:15:58
Yeah.
Abby Phillip
00:15:58
You're just like you're like, oh, their hair was a little askew today. What's going on?
Amy Chozick
00:16:05
Any any kind of variation in the message, you know.
Abby Phillip
00:16:07
Yeah.
Amy Chozick
00:16:08
But it's interesting because when you were saying it's not the best way to, to understand the electorate, it's also not the best way to understand the inner workings of the campaign. Like, often I'd be like, what's happening in Brooklyn because I've been in, you know, Detroit listening her economic speech and her meanwhile, her campaign is in turmoil in Brooklyn. So it's like it's a weird it's a funny beast.
Audie Cornish
00:16:24
There was a period just before that end of social media, and Obama was someone who also was like, it was a little closed off as people were extremely disciplined. And Hillary obviously distrusted the press for a variety of reasons. So when I arrived there, following in New Hampshire, I was watching from the back. You were on the bus. I was in the back. And what I noticed is that I had more fun following the campaign from a distance. Once I gave up on access and spent all my time talking to voters, it felt like a qualitatively different experience.
Amy Chozick
00:17:00
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:17:01
How do you think about it now?
Amy Chozick
00:17:03
Look, look, it's very expensive to send someone out on the campaign trail. If you have the luxury of maybe having, like, someone younger on the bus all the time. But then, you know, the Abby's of the world, the ability to go in and out. I think that's probably ideal, but I do. I will say the if the if the choice is being on the bus or sitting in your cubicle in New York or Washington and watching it on TV and on Twitter, like you should be on the bus, like at least you're seeing the country. At least you're hearing the speeches. At least you're, you know, even I would come back and say, I don't see any Hillary yard signs in Ohio, but there's so many Obama yard signs. You know, there were just things like that that we sort of took for granted. Oh, but the data says this. The data says that like, there's nothing more valuable than getting out and seeing the country. If you can pop in and out with the candidate to the diner without the bubble, that's great. But like sitting in your cubicle is not the answer.
Amy Chozick
00:17:52
I'm talking with Amy Chozick and Abby Phillip. We'll be back in a moment. Welcome back. I'm talking with political reporters Amy Chozick and Abby Phillip about life on the campaign trail. Another thing I would hear on the bus. Is someone making a sad phone call to their spouse. Literally missing the game. Missing the school play.
Abby Phillip
00:18:19
Oh, yeah. Reading the story to their 18 month old.
Amy Chozick
00:18:24
Oh, yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:18:25
One of our friends, right, reading. I remember sitting in the hallway of the Democratic National Convention and watching her do the reading of the book through FaceTime in a crowded hallway.
Abby Phillip
00:18:34
There is a lifecycle of the girls on the show.
Amy Chozick
00:18:38
But also, if you would go back and read The Boys On The Bus the only when it's an iconic book, I still love it. But like the only women in that book are like putting in a pot roast after their heroic men get back from their primary covering the debates. And so I think it's like showing the women their whole lives, are dumpster fires, like.
Abby Phillip
00:18:54
And what was the line? You have to be both Martha Stewart and Bob Woodward at the same time. True. Yeah, that is true.
Amy Chozick
00:19:01
Can't be a childless mess.
Audie Cornish
00:19:03
Amy, what was it like translating your experience? You had written it as a as a memoir. Yeah, but now you have to write a teleplay or you have to help write a fictional depiction. What are the things you really wanted to translate, and what are the things that you were willing to play around with for the sake of entertainment?
Amy Chozick
00:19:23
What made me really excited about this project was that we're playing in a fictional world. I did not want to relive 2016. We didn't want to live in a Hillary Trump world. And to Abby's point of it, feeling sort of vintage. I think it's idealistic. I think it is like a version of politics and media that will be hopefully an escape, because right now it's pretty dark. So that was exciting to me. It's funny, less than like, oh, I must get this anecdote from the book into the show. It was more like my partner Rina Mimoun would I would come into the writer's room and she'd say, what's a conversation you wish you had had that you've, like, played out in your head a million times? I wish I'd had this conversation with a candidate.
Audie Cornish
00:19:55
'I'll be honest, I saw a couple moments of that. There a moment where your, Hillary stand-in your elusive candidate stops the elevator and lectures the main character.
Amy Chozick
00:20:07
Ooh, ooh, yes.
Hettienne Park as Felicity Walker
00:20:07
Sadie McCarthy still is bumbling as ever, I see.
Melissa Benoist as Sadie McCarthy
00:20:13
Sorry?
Hettienne Park as Felicity Walker
00:20:14
You should be. You and your newspaper ruined my life. You cost me the presidency with your snark and your sarcasm disguised as wit and whimsy, and that viral meltdown that set women back 100 years. That was embarassing.
Audie Cornish
00:20:30
And I thought, this is fantasy, and I love it just because it's the idea of a politician telling us what they really think.
Amy Chozick
00:20:37
Thank you. That's actually one of them. So even even more than like, I need this real thing to happen. It was much more like, what do you imagine? Or what do you wish would happen? Of course, we never got private conversations on the candidates bus like it's a TV show. You have to extend reality. Sadie sneaks on the bus. They have a private conversation, very much a conversation I've had, an imaginary conversation I've had in my head that I got to kind of write my heart out for. The things I was like, very annoying and adamant about were, as you said, the messy press file. We had, you know, the Yellowtail at the bar, the, the credentials, even the bus. So, like, a bus is very, very hard to shoot on. It's impossible. So there were all kinds of creative ideas from our crew to, like, maybe we put sofas in, like, reconfigure the, the seats. And I was like, no, no, it's called The Girls On The Bus. It has to look like a Greyhound.
Audie Cornish
00:21:21
One of the things that I worried would bother me. So I'm just going to say it,.
Amy Chozick
00:21:25
That's alright. Please.
Audie Cornish
00:21:26
Every, every, every journalist who is a woman in every piece of entertainment sleeps with her source.
Amy Chozick
00:21:34
'Fair. Okay, this was something. First of all, I meet with the writers for the first time and I'm like, no, no, no, she can have sex with this person. She can't have sex. I like I like every idea. I was like, no, they can't sleep with a candidate, you know, it was like every kind of like Grey -- And I love Shonda, said with love. But like, every soapy thing was like, no, they could actually, like, can't happen in reality, right? .
Audie Cornish
00:21:52
Yeah. But also like, this will not be a TED talk.
Amy Chozick
00:21:54
That's okay.
Audie Cornish
00:21:55
It feels like one of the things that annoys people about journalists. Slash woman.
Amy Chozick
00:22:02
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:22:03
Is getting in your face, asking questions, being where you're not supposed to be.
Amy Chozick
00:22:06
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:22:07
And so Hollywood has to gin up a reason where a woman would be led in a room, asking questions. How could this happen?
Amy Chozick
00:22:14
This was really important to me.
Audie Cornish
00:22:14
Well, you need to have had a relationship with someone.
Amy Chozick
00:22:17
'So this was really important to me. She had a relationship with someone -- to Abby's point, you're in, and my story about campaign hookups. You're on the road. You're gonna hook up with the bartender at the Marriott or, like, somebody, a bag man on the campaign trail? Like, it's almost like a camp environment. Like, who else are you meeting? Right. So Sadie had a relationship with someone who was.
Audie Cornish
00:22:32
This is the main character.
Amy Chozick
00:22:34
Yes, Sadie, the main character, had a relationship with someone who was a bag man. Very low level, not a conflict four years ago. Flash forward. He's the best. He's been promoted. He's the press secretary. It's a conflict. And I think what's important about the storyline is like, she's not, she's not sleeping with him to get information. It's like a huge problem. This has come back to haunt her and she pays very, very dearly. Called into a disciplinary hearing, you know, sort of branded with this like huge mistake that she made that she apologizes profusely for, that she shows never impacted her coverage. And I think what I really wanted to show with this was to actually flip that cliche of journalism movies that, like, drives us crazy on its head and say, like, who were the boys on the bus hooking up with? Like, come on. And like what.
Abby Phillip
00:23:13
Nobody talks about. Nobody talks about that. But it was happening.
Amy Chozick
00:23:17
Of course it was happening
Audie Cornish
00:23:17
Do you think it's because women were not in the same positions of power?
Amy Chozick
00:23:21
I think women have zero margin for error. And there was a very famous story around that period when a female journalist had had a relationship with a source. And Abe Rosenthal, the executive editor of the New York Times fired her. And there's this famous quote that you can cover the circus, but you can't f the elephants. Right. And and I just.
Audie Cornish
00:23:37
Never heard that before.
Abby Phillip
00:23:39
That's a good one
Amy Chozick
00:23:42
I don't think like, if you tell me there were no men sleep having questionable sexual relationships in that period, like I've never heard about one being like dragged out and, you know, walk of shame. And so hopefully Sadie writes this manifesto that she's, like, sick of Hollywood portraying journalists, as getting female journalists getting their information through sex when the fact is we have zero margin for error and you mess up once and it's like, you know, real characters and especially fictional characters make mistakes. And of course, she makes one. She pays for it dearly.
Abby Phillip
00:24:10
I think also, I mean, that part of the storyline, I think, was less central to me than Sadie's constantly kind of like falling in love with the candidate.
Amy Chozick
00:24:21
Yes.
Abby Phillip
00:24:22
She is covering.
Amy Chozick
00:24:23
Yeah.
Abby Phillip
00:24:24
And I think as a journalist.
Audie Cornish
00:24:25
Speaking of her, hopefully, and speaking about what she wished she would do, she has a very sort of naked, and public support for the candidate.
Abby Phillip
00:24:35
That was the part that like I had the most cringe about.
Audie Cornish
00:24:37
Yeah. You're covering your heart. I feel you like having palpitations.
Amy Chozick
00:24:40
No, that's the love story made you uncomfortable
Abby Phillip
00:24:42
Yeah. Because that's the part that I think creates the most tension for her.
Amy Chozick
00:24:46
Yeah.
Abby Phillip
00:24:47
Where she wants to be this, like, real journalist, but she keeps falling for it the spin of these candidates.
Amy Chozick
00:24:54
Yeah. And I love Grace's character. Carla Gugino's character is like, oh, my God, you're so, like, naive. And they're all power hungry. I think that was. Yes, I love Sadie's idealism, but yes, it gets her into trouble. And I think it is like you talk about, like, our us covering. It kind of feels like you're in love, but there is no love, right? You think about this person constantly. They think about you never. And I think, you know.
Amy Chozick
00:25:17
You know.
Amy Chozick
00:25:18
And there's like, you know.
Abby Phillip
00:25:19
Classic toxic relationship
Amy Chozick
00:25:19
And you know what they eat. Sadie shows up in episode two and she's like at Centro, our Iowa Restaurant, Des Moines, Iowa. And she knows what the what the candidate is ordering. Like, you know, every detail about them. And so that confrontation in the elevator is, like really heartbreaking for Sadie. But I think the journey we're on with Sadie is like, okay, you're not perfect. You're not who I thought you were. And I think that I don't know if you felt this. For me, it was a little bit sad, in a way, to see the candidates up close, because I would see like a million people, like losing their minds for Obama. And they were so hopeful. And it was so. And I was like, oh, that looks fun. You kind of cede your ability to see these people as like heroes because they're all human, right? They're all you see their flaws, you see their humanity. And so I think that was something we like grasped on early on that it's like a little bit sad.
Audie Cornish
00:26:03
And there's a chicken or egg factor because the candidates have become more shut down, more performative, precisely because so many people have the sole job of only watching them and waiting for them to slip up.
Amy Chozick
00:26:14
Yeah
Audie Cornish
00:26:15
There's literally no incentive for them to be vulnerable.
Amy Chozick
00:26:17
Completely.
Abby Phillip
00:26:18
Yeah. I mean, the candidates at this point, less is more, right? Because they can control so much of the narrative. That's the other part about the campaign reporter life that has really changed. I mean, part of the reason for the press corps is because usually the media was the reason that all of this information got to the world in a certain way. That is obviously no longer. And on top of that, I mean, the the idea of these sort of like internet native reporters who are constantly live streaming, and maybe they have a perspective, that is also depicted in the show, and it's a real thing that's accelerating at the same time.
Audie Cornish
00:27:03
Yeah, there's a character who's your, Gen Z stand in, and she's constantly live streaming. She talks about her follower count.
Amy Chozick
00:27:09
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:27:09
She herself is her own political brand.
Amy Chozick
00:27:13
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:27:13
But she is now encountering a culture of actual reporting.
Amy Chozick
00:27:16
Lola's the character that actually, to Abby's point, was even evolving as we wrote it. Like, I don't think I would have written Substack into the script two years ago, and now it's like she has a subscription Substack that's paying her way. It's sponsored content.
Audie Cornish
00:27:27
Someone is paying her in advance to make a newsletter.
Amy Chozick
00:27:30
Exactly
Audie Cornish
00:27:30
But you also have a moment where a candidate's staffer is saying you're going to get to do an interview. Air quotes. Here are all the talking points and questions in order. Read this.
Amy Chozick
00:27:40
Yeah, well, this is Lola and I love Lola's evolution because she does go from being like totally in the tank for our sort of AOC type candidate. I'm here as an activist. I'm here to get her elected. And then as she bonds with the girls and learns what they do, she starts to get really uncomfortable with the candidate treating her just like a megaphone and like taking advantage of her, and she starts to really want to become a real journalist.
Audie Cornish
00:28:02
You know, at the end of the day, I don't think I've ever seen anything quite so idealistic and hopeful depicting, journalism culture, which was really fascinating to watch in this moment politically, where people feel the opposite. And I know you said this is about escapism. Who do you think it's for?
Amy Chozick
00:28:19
Well, certainly we would love to appeal to young women. I mean, one of the things about the journalism hopefulness, a big inspiration for us. Well, Broadcast News. Almost Famous, remember Almost Famous?
Audie Cornish
00:28:29
Of course.
Amy Chozick
00:28:29
You know, and like when I watched that, I was like, oh my God, I want to, I want to, I want to work for Rolling Stone. I want to get on the bus with Cameron Crowe. I want to travel with the band.
Audie Cornish
00:28:37
I want to chronicle the lives of sad groupies.
Amy Chozick
00:28:40
It looked fun, I mean, even like politics being dark aside. Like, I think journalism, it's dark right now and I think
Audie Cornish
00:28:47
But it's not just the journalism. It's like if you follow the Trump campaign and I'll say, this. I watched a friend cover that campaign. The crowd is whipped up against you.
Amy Chozick
00:28:58
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:28:59
During the course of any given set event.
Amy Chozick
00:29:01
Yeah.
Audie Cornish
00:29:02
Right. Like the atmosphere is different.
Amy Chozick
00:29:05
Right. Well, I think it's a strange year when we didn't have a primary. I think primaries get so hopefully, like, the culture of the bus is not dead forever.
Abby Phillip
00:29:13
I hope not.
Amy Chozick
00:29:14
I mean, I hope the show like it, like young people watch it and think being a journalist looks cool. Like I want to be on that bus like that looks fun.
Abby Phillip
00:29:20
Well people do always ask me about this
Amy Chozick
00:29:22
Yeah.
Abby Phillip
00:29:23
I mean, it's it's like the number one thing,.
Amy Chozick
00:29:25
The bus?
Abby Phillip
00:29:25
Just like, what is it like to cover a candidate? I think people genuinely want to know. And this show being centered on the the women on the bus, the girls on the bus is actually really different because I think even the journalism shows are really it's, it's, it's like about the candidate. And then the reporters are kind of like ancillary to the story, right?
Audie Cornish
00:29:47
Wearing brown, skulking around, unpermed hair.
Abby Phillip
00:29:50
This really takes you inside kind of. I know it's like a fun, fictionalized version.
Amy Chozick
00:29:55
They're also like, sanctimonious, like we're the big men speaking truth to power. And I think it's like they're all people, like their personal lives are a dumpster fires because they're giving their lives to this job. And and they're working so hard to find the truth. And Sadie does believe that the truth still matters and I think like
Audie Cornish
00:30:10
To the detriment of their relationships back home, etcetera.
Amy Chozick
00:30:12
Completely. Exactly.
Audie Cornish
00:30:13
Right. Like this is this is the life.
Amy Chozick
00:30:15
Yeah. So I hope it shows that. And then I was like, I was really intrigued. Like during the Trump years. There was a massive boom in people bingeing the West Wing, and I do think so. I do think like when you're looking at our crowded, raucous, funny primary like hopefully people can say, okay, there's a political cycle happening in reality. And then there's this escapist one where Scott Foley does a Magic Mike striptease in episode three.
Abby Phillip
00:30:35
Something to look forward to, folks.
Audie Cornish
00:30:36
Yeah. Wow I just failed my job, actually, as a critic, by not diving into that more. well, Amy and Abby, thank you so much for talking to us about this.
Amy Chozick
00:30:47
Thank you. This was a blast!
Abby Phillip
00:30:49
It was so great to reminisce.
Amy Chozick
00:30:50
So fun, with Abby
Audie Cornish
00:30:51
'That's former campaign reporter Amy Chozick, creator and executive producer of The Girls On The Bus. The show is streaming now on Max, which is, of course, like CNN, owned by Warner Brothers Discovery. We also heard from Abby Phillip, my colleague and host of CNN's NewsNight with Abby Phillip. That's it for this episode of The Assignment. We'd love to hear what's on your mind. And our number is (202) 854-8802. Remember, we might use your voicemail in a future episode of our show. This episode of The Assignment, a production of CNN Audio, was produced by Carla Javier. Matt Martinez is our senior producer. Dan Dzula is our technical director. Steve Lickteig is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We also got support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manasseri, Robert Mathers, Jon Dianora, Leni Steinhardt, Jamus Andrest, Nichole Pesaru and Lisa Namerow. Shout out to Benjamin Evans, Nick Godsell and Tayler Phillips for your help with this week's very special episode. Special thanks, as always to Katie Hinman. I'm Audie Cornish. Thank you for listening.