Wales' new First Minister has spoken about his approach to resolving farm protests, strikes by junior doctors, new road building and the closure of the Port Talbot blast furnaces.
Vaughan Gething spoke to WalesOnline on a visit to the Port Talbot steelworks where he and new economy minister Jeremy Miles were attending a meeting of the transition board hoping to help the 1,900 staff facing redundancy at the Tata steelworks when the blast furnaces close later this year.
The Cardiff South and Penarth MS is facing huge decisions on a number of issues he inherits from Mark Drakeford. This week junior doctors have been on strike in a dispute about pay, with young medics saying they are paid just £13.65 an hour despite years of training and having huge debts; the dispute with Wales' farmers over planned changes to agricultural subsidies has not abated; and the Welsh government's so-called road-building freeze remains controversial .
Mr Gething is also still under pressure over donations he received during his leadership bid from an environmental offender. A survey this week has found that two thirds of people think he should return the £200k he received from Dauson Environmental Group.
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In our interview, Mr Gething:
- Refused to say if it was right junior doctors are paid £13.65 an hour
- Would not commit to firm changes to farm subsidy plans but said he wanted to find a way forward
- Said there was no hope of the M4 relief road being built on his watch
- Softened the Welsh Government's tone on new road building while remaining committed to ensuring environmental tests are met
Admitted he "isn't sure" if all £250,000 of donations he received in his leadership campaign have been spent but any money unspent will be given to the Labour party and said no favours had been asked or given
Said his biggest request of an incoming Labour administration at Westminster would be a "proper partnership"
Joked that his new cabinet secretary for north Wales and transport Ken Skates bought "Kenergy" to the cabinet table
We also questioned the new First Minister on Labour's so-called £3bn steel plan, which it has touted as a way of avoiding the mass job losses at Port Talbot but while Tata itself has indicated that a one-off lump sum would not keep the blast furnaces open. Mr Gething insisted that Labour's plan would help sustain the industry in the UK. For our free daily briefing on the biggest stories, sign up to the Wales Matters newsletter here
WalesOnline Political Editor Ruth Mosalski: Why are you here in Port Talbot today?
Vaughan Gething: I think it's important to be here today. As the economy minister, I was clear about how big an issue the future steel sector is for Wales, not just for Port Talbot, not even just for Llanwern and Trostre as well, but as a big sector of our economy and in having a new economy minister as well I wanted to be clear about being able to meet the company with him at an early stage, as well as meeting local reps as well.
There's a really important working relationship and Jeremy as the new economy minister, very much needs to be part of that, but just as with Mark, as the First Minister, I will still be engaged in that conversation and what I hope the future will bring. Then I will stay for the transition board meeting later on this afternoon for the start of that, and then I'll hand over to Jeremy and he'll lead on the direct engagement around the board.
We're still at a really sensitive point where the company's headline message hasn't changed very much. Workers here and reps understand that there's real challenges for the future. They also understand that a different future is possible if there's still a blast furnace function and there's a change at a UK level with more investment on the table.
Have you chosen to come here today to talk about something that you can blame the Conservative government for, rather than dealing with some of those home issues?
No, the transition board meeting was always going to take place today and it would have been fairly odd. I think, if having appointed a new economy minister, I didn't come with that person and seek to meet the board here at Tata, to meet the UK chief executive of Tata and reps. It's doing the right thing in running the government and making sure we're picking up issues that are here and are really clear and present for the workforce, but matter for the longer term future we want. If we get the best outcome here, it makes a really big difference for our economic future.
The worst outcome gives us a giant problem because I know that if you go to Ebbw Vale, the loss that took place there was not something there was a proper plan for and my worry is that the transition board for all of the fact there are decent people around the board who wants to do the right thing, if you have the worst outcome at the most rapid timeframe, I think it'll need a great deal more resource than the board has currently got. I want to avoid that outcome, because I believe that a better future is possible.
Junior Doctors are on strike at the moment in Wales. Are they wrong to say that they should be earning more than £13.65 after spending all their years of training and graduating with thousands of pounds of debt.
I'm keen to have a conversation with the BMA [British Medical Association] about junior doctors but also other grades of doctors who have taken ballots. I'm looking to arrange a meeting with the BMA and the health minister. I think it's hard to do that when they're taking industrial action but the fact is that Eluned Morgan [Welsh health secretary] has met the BMA eight times over the last 12 months.
I know it's one of those issues in the in-tray that is difficult and it's one of those things that I want to try to find a way forward and not just enjoy the doctors but of course thinking about other health workers who will have their own pay review bodies reporting in May.
In terms of doctors and that £13.65 figure, you can't agree that's the amount of doctors should be being paid surely?
I think the problem always is that I need to go to sit down with them to understand what we can do about their pay aspirations now and in the future.
I understand why, not just junior doctors but lots of health service staff, are particularly frustrated. They've had real term reductions in their pay for more than a decade, they've been through the pandemic. I really do understand why for some of them, the elastic has snapped. I need to be able to sit down with them, to have a conversation with my health secretary to go through what we can realistically do to be completely open about the books we have, talk about what we can do now, what we might be able to do in the future to see if we can find a way forward.
You were health minister, this isn't a new problem in your in-tray you're having to learn about
No, but it's a new scale of problem. When I was the health minister we didn't have industrial action at that time. We're now several years on, because if you remember when there was a junior doctors dispute in 2016-17 in England, we didn't have that here in Wales because we managed to find a way through in partnership to resolve it.
The challenge now is there's even more pay loss in real terms and that affects how junior doctors feel, and they've been through the pandemic as well. All of the extraordinary things that health service workers did, and other frontline workers, and there still isn't the money on the table to provide a real terms pay rise.
The challenge then is they understand, I think, that we're not seeing lots of money being passported over just being hidden in the rest of the books, but it is about, I think, people are saying 'look, I need to know there's going to be something different for the future'.
I want to have that conversation. I want to do all of that negotiation and as wonderful as you are Ruth I will not do all of that to the pages of WalesOnline, but I'm keen to have a conversation and to find a way forward.
You've met the farming unions in the last few days, are you going to offer changes to the policy in terms of EU subsidies that has caused such anger?
I've met both farming unions with Huw Irranca-Davies, the new cabinet secretary for climate change and rural affairs. It was an initial meeting, just to run through where we think we are and setting out the stall that we want to listen to all of the different voices from the consultation.
There were more than 12,000 responses to the consultation that take some time to work through, but I want to find a way forward that still manages to prioritise sustainable food and drink production in Wales and at the same time finds a way through to meet the challenges of our climate and nature emergencies.
That sounds like you're not going to back down completely but it sounds like there may be changes on the table?
Well, I think one of the important points is it's not just agriculture that has a challenge in resource or indeed, in terms of making contribution to the climate, and nature emergency, every sector of the public sector has that challenge as indeed as every sector of industry.
Think about where we are today, for example, so it's how we have the opportunity to take a step back, think about where we are, what we could do in the future, because the broad parameters are things where there is some agreement.
I understand, as we all do, some of the natures of particular disagreement and unhappiness and we'll be working through that. I want that to be constructive in the nature of the conversation we have both in our meetings, but also in public as well.
Are we going to see a change in tack from your administration on road building in Wales?
We still have the same policy and I think this is one of those areas where the impression that has been created is not what our policy says.
Your transport minister did an interview on Sunday, three day after you appointed him, no-one would expect the policy to change within three days but the tack can and what Ken Skates said felt like a change of tone.
We'd always said in the past that there will there will be new roads built, the test will be higher.
So are you going amend those tests?
I don't think the policy needs to change I think we need to understand what the policy allows us to do. For example, in enabling economic development, making sure that as you're designing new schemes, you do think about safety, you think about what alternatives you could implement first, you think about how you can enable active travel, all of those things about whether you're really looking to increase capacity, which is one of the challenges, but it's also about having a policy that meets the resource that we have and where we think that a road is part of the answer.
So your government isn't averse to new roads being built if it meets various tests?
If it meets the test, but that's where we were the last government as well. The challenge was, in the public conversation that took place, it was almost accepted as read there will be no new roads.
You did announce a freeze on building new roads though.
There was a freeze and then the new policy made clear the roads could go ahead if they met those new tests. And I think it's understanding how the tests can be applied and so I'm actually very positive. I'm very pleased that Ken's in the government, I think, not just in a government with Kenergy but I think the government with someone who is really keen to make things happen right across the transport field. It's not just good news for north Wales, but good news for the whole country.
If the UK government said it was going to fund or help fund an M4 relief road, would you look at it again?
That ship has sailed. We're into the Burns delivery, actually I want the UK Government to help fund Burns delivery which I think could make a real difference.
By the end of this year, Keir Starmer is almost certain to be Prime Minister, for the last 14 years you haven't had someone in Downing Street who has been backing your corner? What's your biggest ask of your Labour colleagues in Westminster and what can he do to actually change Wales?
I think having an entirely different relationship. One where there's respect would be helpful. One where a UK Government isn't obsessed taking our money and our powers as they currently are. Every week there is a new proposal to take something away from us, it's draining, and frustrating, but also the ability to agree objectives we think will work for Wales and the UK.
The Clean Energy Power target for 2030 is a big opportunity for Wales. If there is a proper plan for the grid to enable us to do that, you can see that unlocks huge opportunities here in Wales.
So I think for me it is a proper partnership, a regular partnership where people respect each other and understand that if the UK is going to achieve its mission to grow the economy to a generally better place with well-funded public services, you have to have partners in devolution, as opposed to opponents.
Has all the money, the £250,000 you received in donations through your campaign, been spent?
I'm not sure, I need to go through that with my agent and as per the rules, any money that isn't spent will be returned to Welsh Labour because that's what the rules of the contests require.
Polling yesterday by Redfield and Wilton about Wales found two thirds of people questioned in that think that you should return the £200,000 you received from Dauson Environmental. What do you say to those people?
I've been very clear about this.
You may have been but that's that's a huge percentage of people, isn't it?
There's a lot of people that have been very clear about this, I've acted within the rules at all times. No favours been asked or given and I'm getting on with the job of being First Minister.
How long will it take us to get the answer to that question?
It'll be within a few weeks. We'll have to have the returns and be clear about what's left and what's returned to Welsh Labour.
