For Darcy Vescio, playing footy growing up meant playing with the boys and having no teams to join once they turned 14 years old. It’s no wonder that, despite being super talented, Darcy almost quit footy altogether.
I'd only ever played with boys. I remember after the game, we go in, the coach would talk, and then pretty much as soon as they'd stop I would sprint out because I was like, don't want any of these boys to be uncomfortable. I don't wanna see anything. So I'd be out of there and getting changed just like in a dark little dingy block on my own. So I think looking back... that wasn't a great experience.Darcy Vescio
Join footy star Darcy Vescio as they discuss what it’s like to grow up utterly obsessed with a sport but knowing that playing professionally was not an option, and what being a non-binary athlete means to them.
LISTEN TO
Darcy Vescio: Rediscovering footy and being non-binary in AFL Women’s
SBS Audio
25/03/202431:31
Hosted by Yumi Stynes, SEEN is a podcast series about the trailblazers who persist and succeed without positive role models in mainstream culture. You’ll hear from the likes of leading tech creative Tea Uglow, activist Tar ang Chawla, academic and writer Dr Amy Thunig, and more as they share their stories of resilience and courage.
Follow SEEN on the SBS Audio website or app, Spotify and Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host: Yumi Stynes
Producers: Mandy Yuan, Laura Brierley Newton, Marcus Costello
Sound Design and Mix: Ravi Gupta
Executive Producer: Kate Montague
Theme Music: Yeo
Art: Evi O Studios
SBS Team: Caroline Gates, Max Gosford, Joel Supple, Micky Grossman
Original concept by: Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn
Transcript
(Sounds of someone walking across a gravel car park with crickets chirping in the background, a car door slams shut)
Yumi STYNES (Voiceover): In Melbourne's north, tucked between a creek and a cul-de-sac, is a suburban footy oval.
On a particular Autumn night in 2011, Darcy Vescio walked towards that field.
Darcy was 18 years old and had just moved from country Victoria to play with the Darebin Falcons, a team in the Victorian Women's Football League.
(Sounds of a football game with whistles and voices shouting in the background)
VESCIO: I remember walking from the car park down towards the oval and looking out, and there were all these women kicking to each other, and they were just kicking perfect drop punts and marking with outstretched arms. And I was just shocked. It was like walking onto another planet.
(Theme music)
I'd never really seen, like en masse, other people who weren't men, um, with those skills. And, yeah, I just- it was just amazing. It was like an out of body experience, and I thought this is so special. Like, I just had no idea this existed.
STYNES (Voiceover): I'm Yumi Stynes and you're listening to SEEN, a podcast where we celebrate the trailblazers who succeed despite having no role models to lead the way.
We start by acknowledging the Traditional Owners of the land on which we record the Cammeraygal people, Gadigal people, Wurundjeri people, and their Elders past and present.
When Darcy joined the Victorian Women's Football League, they had low expectations. They’d been a super keen footy player as a kid, with real talent, but back then, girls didn’t get to play past 14 years old.
VESCIO: I think my parents sort of made sure that it was a soft sort of cushioning around me when I couldn't play anymore. Like, I think they made sure I was really aware entering that year that that would be my final year. And to be fair, I had seen a couple of girls play football before me. Like, there was one girl a year older and another girl two years older than me at school, and they'd done the same thing.
So that was sort of the pathway I'd seen, and that was completely normal at the time. So I think I remember taking it quite well. But I do remember talking to a guy who was one of the parents when I was playing my last year, and he said that I was really quite distraught. It might have been after the last game or after one of my final games. He said I was crying and really upset, but I have no recollection of it. So, yeah.
(Gentle music)
STYNES (Voiceover): This podcast is about people who blaze trails even when there is no trail. And for Darcy, at this point, there was no place for them to exist in football. Sam Kerr wasn’t a national hero yet. The Matildas existed but were niche. And Darcy’s passion was AFL, not soccer.
So as a teen they refereed adult men’s games, and played netball.
But a friend’s dad who never forgot Darcy’s passion for Aussie Rules, made sure that Darcy’s mum knew that there could be an outlet for Darcy to play footy again once they’d moved to Melbourne.
VESCIO: I think he gave all the contact details to mum and dad. And my dad got on the phone and spoke to the president there, and my mum drove me down to a training session. And, yeah, my teammates remember oh, I rocked up. I was pretty raw. Hadn't played for a long time, but my mum wrote out my fees there and then. And, yeah, I was pretty lucky to have a couple of people pushing me back in to play footy.
STYNES: And Darcy, what did that feel like to, to walk out onto the grass again after all that time with a new team?
VESCIO: I still remember the first night. It was like walking onto another planet. It was just amazing, like I just had no idea this existed. And then, yeah, from there, like, it was just the best group of people.
STYNES (Voiceover): Not only did Darcy Vescio go back, they became a marquee player for the AFL Women’s. A star, community builder, a record-breaking goal scorer, and a player who went on to fight for the rights of other AFLW players.
(Sounds of whistles and crowds at a stadium, we hear commentary on the first match of the AFLW.
“The first ever live telecast of a women’s AFL game exceeded all expectations last month, rating at half a million nationally, the AFL’s game development manager Simon Lethlean says it validated the push for an AFL Women’s league.”)
STYNES (Voiceover): 2017 was the year of the first ever official AFLW game. It’s hard to describe how monumental and historic it was.
The moment the umpire launched the opening ball into the air... people in the stands were in tears. It was history, being played live.
The sight of players who weren't men wearing their team's colours... was profound.
(Sounds of the stadium continue)
Darcy Vescio played that day.
They had come a long way from the bindi-infested sports fields of Wangaratta where they grew up.
(Sounds of stadium fade)
STYNES: Tell me about what you liked about football as a kid?
VESCIO: Yeah. I think the ability to be rough wasn't really something that I got anywhere else. You know? I, I think it is a really unique sport where you learn how to use your body to not only protect yourself, but to protect other people. Like, I don't really know any other sports where you physically can put yourself in between your teammate and an opponent and say, like, I'm gonna be, like, a body shield for you?
But also on top of that, I think in football, you're able to be loud and boisterous and take up space, not only physically, but, like, verbally, I suppose. Like, you get to scream and yell. even the other day, my partner was laughing because I was being just really loud. Like, I was just yelling, and I was like, oh, we finished football a month or so ago. And I haven't- I haven't been yelling since then because at training, you know, you project and it's celebrated, and you have to do it. So I think that was always something that drew me to footy.
STYNES: Just, the kinda, um, the lack of boundaries, I guess, around “be a quiet little person”.
VESCIO: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Football's the opposite. It's “the louder you are, like, you're more likely to impact the game”, um, get the ball more. And your physicality, like, how strong you are, I suppose. And I think even the action of getting knocked down physically and just getting right back up, uh, it's really important.
(Soft music)
STYNES: You know, when you were a kid, you were playing in mixed leagues and I assume some boys leagues. What do you appreciate about playing in a women's league now that you didn't notice when you were a kid?
VESCIO: Um, there's a few things that I sort of reflect back on. Like, at the time, because I'd only ever played with boys, I remember after the game, we go in, the coach would talk, and then pretty much as soon as they'd stop, I would sprint out because I was like, I don't want any of these boys to be uncomfortable. Like, I don't wanna see anything. Like so I'd be out of there, um, and getting changed just like in a dark little dingy block on my own. (Laughs) So I think looking back, I'm like, aww, that wasn't a great experience.
STYNES: Mhmm.
(Music fades)
VESCIO: And I think that is really like, I know locker room talk gets a lot of, like, negative, I guess, connotations. But, like, growing up, it's a really nice part of sport, and, like, it's something I really enjoy now. So-
STYNES: What is it like when you're in that locker room after a win or after a loss? What what- what's the emotions and the, I guess, the bonding experience like?
VESCIO: Yeah. I I think it- it's so special. Um, whether you win or lose a locker room is a constant. So if it's after a win, you would have just all sung together. So usually, you sing out on the ground for broadcast, but then you come into the locker rooms and you sing together. And that’s, that’s a really special thing. And that’s something I love about football, is that you, if you win, you sing together. Like, I think that's just such a fun concept, and I wish you did it in more aspects of life. Like, if you succeed, you sing. So I I love that.
I think there's just a lot of, like, little conversations where you're just going around to people and just telling them what they've done really well, like, just those positive affirmations or just pointing out moments in the game where you loved that they, they smothered that ball or that got a finger on that ball or whatever it is, like, that they pick someone up off the ground.
And it's very, you're very vulnerable when all you have is each other, so it's nice when you can just lean on each other.
STYNES: Mm. Do you think they're lifelong friends?
VESCIO: I think so. Like, it's funny. It's trade period at the moment, so there's a lot of player movement and you know? It's funny because we're all very similar sort of people, but we're all put in different teams, and that means that we automatically hate each other. But I think I'll look back, and they'll be, they'll be really strong, strong relationships.
(Music sting)
STYNES: It's come up on this podcast that men's football is an unsafe place. There's no players that are out as gay to the world. They might be out to their teammates, but we don't know about that. There's a lot of homophobia. There's a lot of racism. Women's football seems completely different to me, in that it's super inclusive. Gay and lesbian, non-binary players are supported. Do you have an understanding of that difference that you can share?
VESCIO: Yeah. I think it's a pretty interesting topic and and something that a lot of people are very curious about because it's, like, how do we exist together under the same umbrella, but we seem to be completely different in the people we attract I guess, and the way we operate. But I guess the easiest way to break it down is looking at the origins of football in both spaces uniquely. So for men's footy, I guess, at school, like, it's rough. It's hyper masculine, and it's almost expected for young men to be involved in football, um, if you wanna be part of, like, popular groups or the dominant sort of culture.
Whereas for women's footy, you know, it's been around for a long time, but it's often existed in the shadows. And it's been forged by queer women and gender diverse people who, you know, didn't care about what society thought of them. They were already rebelling against a lot of what was expected of them, um, in terms of their sexuality and gender. And they created this space where they were gonna play footy and, yeah, they just didn't care. Like, people would insult them, and, and they didn't have support but they just created these little spaces and created leagues and things like that. And from that, eventually, we lead into AFLW.
So yeah, that's sort of, I guess, the two different communities of AFLM and AFLW, and that's why they're quite different. But I hope, um, that the injection of AFLW makes the AFL overall feel like a safer space. And you know, we know statistically that there are gay men playing AFL. And I I think it would be a really difficult position for them to be in to feel like, it would feel like a huge weight on the shoulders I think, but I hope that from us just living and being in that space and demonstrating what it is to live a proud life, um, and the way we support each other, it gives courage to someone to step out or a group of men to step out. But yeah I can understand that it's a difficult position to be in.
STYNES: It's really beautiful to hear you say that because I always picture the young kids that are watching you players and being influenced and looking up to you and idolising you. And I never think about what the men, the male players who are alongside you might be getting in terms of a great influence in how that might be changing their positions.
VESCIO: Yeah. Absolutely. And Uh, to be fair, I was thinking, I don't know if any of us have really openly shown our support for the male player players out there who aren't straight. And I guess it is a position of privilege for us that we've never- like as soon as I entered women's footy, that was my first experience of seeing people truly embracing and celebrating, people of all gender and sexual identities. And I didn't realise I hadn't seen that until I was in it. Like, it was like, oh, like, that's what it feels like, that's what it looks like for people to be able to hold their partner's hand without hesitation, things like that. Um, so I sort of thought I wonder if, if we're doing enough to just offer support as well.
(Music with drums)
STYNES: Let's talk about if you're comfortable to talk about it — about gender identity. Is that alright, Darcy?
VESCIO: Yeah.
STYNES: So for listeners who don't even really understand what that means as an identity, can you help us understand?
VESCIO: Yeah. Well, to be fair, I'm still unpacking it and understanding it more as time goes on. But I think for me growing up, like, sexuality was something I'd always been somewhat aware of, and, you know, came out when I was eighteen or so as a not straight person. But then it's only been in recent times where gender identity and learning about that, like, it kinda was a new concept a few years ago for me.
And the more I've been exposed to it and start to stand it. Um, when I used to hear non-binary people talking, um, I'd used to kinda be like, “Oh, well, I don't feel like a woman, and I have to be a woman. So, like, how is that fair?” Like, there'd be this real, like, (laughs) almost, like, envy or, like, frustration, being like, what? And then after a while, I probably interrogated myself a little bit more around that and was like, oh, like, perhaps that's an indication of something. And, like, for me, the more I thought about what it is to be a woman or how that sort of fits with me. Like, I sort of saw it as me, like, opting out of gender a little bit, like, um, and it felt really freeing as well. Like, I feel like there are so many things that like, rightly or wrongly, you attach with being a man or a woman. It just, yeah, felt quite freeing.
STYNES: Were there any unexpected reactions to you coming out?
VESCIO: I feel like if I didn't feel safe and, like, I would be supported. Like, I probably would have just held onto it for a while. But I- I think I've been really, really fortunate. Like, I know a lot of people who who are just like me are in spaces where they just can't. And, like, that's, that's hard. So I, I feel really fortunate.
STYNES (Voiceover): In previous interviews Darcy has said how they didn't want pronouns to complicate things for people around them.
STYNES: Um, and you also said about that, that you didn't wanna be annoying. And I think that that's a really interesting way of kind of saying, should I ask people to make adjustments for me?
VESCIO: Yeah, I think that is a big thing for me. Like, I didn't want people to look at me differently or to feel uncomfortable referring to me.
Yeah, I just hate any sort of annoyance, so I don't wanna put people out. And to feel like maybe that was going to be an issue for some people. Like, that felt uncomfortable.
But then when I strip it right back, I'm like, if this wasn't inconvenient for people and if people were really good at using pronouns, and it didn't feel, like, uncomfortable in the mouth at times. Like, where would you be with it? And I'll, I'm like, I would absolutely be non-binary. There'd be no, like, friction or anything for me. So that's how I know I'm really comfortable with it.
STYNES (Voiceover): We've come a long way in realising the importance of language when it comes to people's identity. Words matter. But Darcy is incredibly generous.
STYNES: And do you get stressed if people get it wrong?
VESCIO: No. I don't- I only get stressed if they get stressed. Like, for me, it's no, it's no issue. Like, I think most people try, um.
STYNES: And what about your parents? Have they nailed it?
VESCIO: Mum's getting pretty good at it, and I- she's really trying hard and it, and it makes me really happy.
Especially, like, the gender stuff, like, she probably didn't really understand it that much at first and was like “I don't know what that means but we'll chat about it when you come home.” I was like, okay. (Laughs) Um, but I think when I came out initially, like, as not straight, she probably didn't react in the- the way that she would now. Um, so I think for us, like, it's been a really nice, healing and, like, a second chance at, being really supportive.
STYNES (Voiceover): Darcy’s Mum is Chinese. Her dad is Italian. And this is another instance of the adult kid holding space for the fallibility of their parents, and giving them the understanding they need, and maybe some time, to grow. Author Amy Thunig talks about this in another episode of this podcast. If you haven’t listened to it, please do.
VESCIO: I think a lot of the time, like, parents, like, it's their first time. They fumble, and sometimes they fall. But I think it's been a really nice process this time around in her being like, “Well, this is what you are. What can I do? How can I support you?” like… Dad, I'm not sure if dad's fully… like, I think he tries as well, but it's probably just not something he's been exposed to as much. But he's getting there.
STYNES: He's getting there.
VESCIO: They're both very supportive, so-
STYNES: It’s practice isn’t it?
VESCIO: It absolutely is practice.
STYNES: Did coming out impact your career in any way?
VESCIO: I think that time was quite stressful. It felt really freeing and, like, it did feel powerful to be able to share that. But at the same time, like you are in a more vulnerable position. Like, I'm happier, and I feel really comfortable… but I know people will come for me, if they feel like just picking on a non-binary person and you know, if they spin the wheel, it might be my name that day.
STYNES: What sort of things are said to you?
VESCIO: It's usually just nasty little comments, really, because you're, like a, in public or whatever. People just write whatever they want, but they don't know, you might just be, like, at home, on the couch with your dog, and you open up your phone, and it's just, there. Like, that's the notification you're getting. So I think, it feels like people are coming for you because you're, like, in your safe space when you read those comments. They probably think you're, like, in your football uniform at the club all the time and, like, feeling really strong. Most of the time, you're not. You're just- just on your phone scrolling like everyone else and it hits-
STYNES: With your guard down.
VESCIO: Yeah! Your guard's down.
You might be having a nice day. And then they'll just say something nasty that makes you question your existence. So it's yeah. Just things like that.
STYNES: Is the nasty stuff about your game, your playing, or is it something else?
VESCIO: It's usually about belonging in AFLW, and it's, it is a really interesting topic because I think since its inception, like, we, like, love the W, and, like, that's our thing, and that's what we're most proud of. And then when you say you're not W, but you're in W, people are like, what are you doing here?
STYNES: When you say the W, you mean the word women? Is that what you mean?
VESCIO: Yeah. Yeah.
STYNES: Right.
VESCIO: And I know that I fully belong playing here, and that it's not me. It's the W that's the bigger issue or, or, like the way we just have to have everything in a box.
Um so I think it's difficult for some to compute how you can not identify as that yet take up space.
STYNES: Mhmm.
VESCIO: Like, especially since AFLW’s come in, like, I've had a sort of a public, guess, persona or a public presence.
And I think people have always sort of known what to expect from me or even, like, my social media, like, presence. Like, it's pretty fun, and I like to keep it pretty light. And I I think for me I have a pretty good sense of how people will receive it.
STYNES: Mm.
VESCIO: And I think for coming out, like, that was felt like it was very much out of my hands. And, like, I, I like people liking me as well. Like, I think, like, I'm a fairly non-controversial figure. And, yeah I don't know if it's phrased right. I like people liking me, but I think I like people enjoying my presence and to feel like maybe that was going to be an issue for some people. Like, that felt uncomfortable.
STYNES: Maybe it- maybe it's liking not being hated.
VESCIO: Yeah! (Laugh) I think I like it when people don't despise me (laugh).
STYNES: Same! And yet, here we are!
VESCIO: And don’t want me dead…
STYNES: Yes!
VESCIO Yeah.
Music / Beat
STYNES (Voiceover): In the years since the AFLW's inception, a lot has changed. For starters the league has grown from eight to 18 teams — that means every AFL club now has both a men's and a women's team. I asked Darcy about what else has changed?
VESCIO: Yeah. A lot has changed. A big change for us has been the, the pay. So I think in the first year, like, the minimum was around, like, eight to ten thousand, whereas I think that's sitting around maybe fifty now, um, which is a huge change.
STYNES: I noticed that you were, um, part of the negotiation for better pay. One the active kind of, um, advocates for that and activists in a way. And I love that because I think it's really- it's so tempting to just kinda take the back seat. It's, it feels ugly and scrappy to fight for money, um, and yet it’s so necessary. Tell me about that experience and what you'd recommend for up and coming players.
VESCIO: Yeah. That was a pretty horrendous experience when it was all happening, uh, in twenty nineteen because, I was part of a small group who were pushing further than probably what the main group were willing to do. Um, but for me, like, it was really stressful and felt like a big load. But I think from there, it's sort of, like, set, I guess, a precedent for other players to see that you can stand up for things and you won't die. Like, it it feels really stressful, and, like, media articles will be written and, you know, people will say that you're greedy or that you're fighting for the wrong things or going about things in the wrong way, which whenever you're pushing for anything, it's always like, it's not what you're doing. It's how you're doing it, which is silly.
But I think you have to keep pushing because it would be so easy for the players now to be like, “Well, you know, our pay is pretty good, and, you know, we're getting paid all year round, so, you know, what more could we want?” And you look back and see where where we've come from in AFLW and women’s footy more generally and you could think that you know we’ve got everything we want but.
It's just, it's a good way to stop progress if you, if you go down that path. So, yeah. I think it's easy to sort of think that you, you don't need to push or that you should just be grateful. But I always think, like, you can be grateful for everything you have and still push further because that's your responsibility as well. Like, you don't just get to step into this space and enjoy everything that other people have fought really hard for.
STYNES (Voiceover): In some ways, AFLW has evolved a little bit like the men's game did back when it changed from a Victorian league into a national game. There weren't massive sponsorship deals and players had to earn a living from another job.
VESCIO: You know, we talk about the balance all the time with working and, and playing football, but a lot of the time, players were just drowning, um, with work and football and not coping well at all. So I think that's been a big shift. And, yeah, for my club, Carlton, like, we changed to training during the day, um, this season. So that's been, that's been a real life changer. Like, I think that's probably going to extend a few careers for a few more years and made us feel… like it shouldn't make feel more legitimate, but it does when we're not rocking up and training at night, when everyone else is at home with their families. So that's been a really big change too.
STYNES: Wow. I never even thought of that. So you don't have to turn up after work tired. You just show up as per a job.
VESCIO: Yeah. Exactly. It's been huge.
STYNES: I know progress has been made, but what do you feel still needs to be improved for women's sports?
VESCIO: Well, for us in AFLW, it's definitely playing more games.
A lot of people don't realise the AFLW season is really short. So there's eighteen teams, but we only played ten rounds. So there's a whole bunch of teams you don't play which feels really strange. And it's weird that the top level of women's football is the place where you play the least.
Like, ten games is like nothing! You're barely scratching the, the surface of what your team can do, so I think that that makes it really tricky just to get better and to become what we all want to become and what the audience wants and what the sponsors want, what everyone wants.
If you look at a men's season by round ten, things are starting to happen, but not heaps. Like if you look at Carlton’s season, like, they had lost 8 games on the trot and then they turn everything around and somehow make their way to the prelim, and, like, everyone's pumped. And it’s, they couldn't have had a bigger turnaround. If that was us, we would have finished our season, there and then, like, you don't get a chance at redemption. You don't get to build anything.
But, yeah. I I think the crowd numbers are getting better. And people, um, who would have watched the final series this year. Like, that was amazing football to watch, and it's football we haven't seen before. So I feel like every year, it's getting better. And people are I guess, if you watched any of the Matildas this year in the World Cup, people are are seeing things and, and understanding the power of women's sport and how exciting and, and wonderful it is to watch when you do invest and give it a chance. So, yeah, I feel like the crowds are getting better. People are becoming more involved. And because there are more teams as well, everyone's got skin in the game.
STYNES: Help me to understand that, Darcy. The Matildas, like it was such a moment in time, really, for Australian women's sport. What did we see that we hadn't seen? What was revealed that Australia needed to see?
VESCIO: Well I just remember during the World Cup, like, everywhere you looked, like you saw Matildas, like, whether it was on TV watching ads, like billboards, everything like that. The way they were shown to Australia and, I guess, more widely to the world. These players became superheroes to everyone, and it felt like if you weren't watching the Matildas, like, what are you doing?
STYNES: It was pretty mind blowing.
VESCIO: Yeah!
STYNES: For women to be drawn as superheroes, just regular women without makeup and the implants and whatnot.
VESCIO: Yeah. Like, Sam Kerr's low ponytail capturing the nation. (Laughs) Like like, is there a more famous Australian silhouette right now? Just the low pony.
STYNES: Yeah. Just the functional hairstyle, strong shoulders, the staunch stance. And is that that's the sort of how you like to be represented as well, like, just in your strength?
VESCIO: Yeah absolutely! I think… she's just being.
And I think there's power in that. You're able to just be, and people see that.
STYNES: What does being seen mean to you, Darcy?
(Theme music)
VESCIO: I think being seen to me means able to talk about who you are and and feel like that's embraced and celebrated and not just tolerated. Um yea and I I think it's just being really comfortable in your own skin and knowing that you're loved.
STYNES (Voiceover): This has been SEEN, hosted by me, Yumi Stynes and if you would like to help out the show, please share the podcast with some people that you know would love it!
Every listen is a tick, every share is a ringing endorsement, and reviews go a long way to help us get these great stories out there.
SEEN is an Audiocraft production in collaboration with SBS. From Audiocraft, Season 2 of SEEN was produced by Mandy Yuan, Laura Brierley Newton and Marcus Costello. Sound design and mix is done by Ravi Gupta, and the Executive Producer is Kate Montague.
The SBS team are Caroline Gates, Joel Supple, Max Gosford and Micky Grossman.
Our podcast artwork is created by Evi-O Studios.
And music is by Yeo.
SEEN's original concept was by Bernadette Phương Nam Nguyễn.
