'The Five' react to partisan fight over Supreme Court nomination

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'The Five' react to partisan fight over Supreme Court nomination

Democrats rail against process on first day of Judge Amy Coney Barrett's confirmation hearings

This is a rush transcript from “The Five” October 12, 2020. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

DANA PERINO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Hello, everyone. I'm Dana Perino, along with Dagen McDowell, Juan Williams, Jesse Watters, and Brian Kilmeade. He is here, yes. It is 5:00 in New York City, and this is THE FIVE. A bitter partisan battle over the Supreme Court officially underway today, Judge Amy Coney Barrett on Capitol Hill for the first day of her confirmation hearing.

Democrats, for the most part, avoiding personal attacks, choosing instead to focus on the process and key 2020 issues like healthcare.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I think this hearing is a sham. I think it shows real messed up priorities from the Republican Party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  This hearing itself is a microcosm of Trump's dangerous ineptitude.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  In her speech at the White House, COVID super spreader event two weeks ago, Judge Barrett aligned herself with her mentor, the late Justice Antonin Scalia, who twice voted to strike down the ACA.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Stripping healthcare from millions of Americans during a pandemic, that's really what is at stake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO:  Senator Kamala Harris stepping away from the campaign trail for just a minute, trying to drive some of the Democrats' points.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS (D) VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  More than nine million Americans have already voted, and millions more will vote, while this illegitimate committee process is underway by replacing Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg with someone who will undo her legacy. President Trump is attempting to roll back Americans' rights for decades to come.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO:  And Republicans responding, saying the attacks are just a diversion to avoid focusing on Barrett's qualifications.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  There is nothing unConstitutional about this process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We have heard very little about the nominee who is here and whose confirmation we are considering. And I think part of the reason for that is that, on any measure, Judge Barrett's credentials are impeccable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  I'm struck by the irony of who demeaning to women their accusations really are.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO:  And we did get to hear from Amy Coney Barrett for just a little bit today with her opening statement. Here is just a taster for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMY CONEY BARRETT, UNITED STATES FEDERAL JUDGE:  Courts are not designed to solve every problem or right every wrong in our public life. The policy decisions and value judgments of government must be made by the political branches, elected by, and accountable to the people. The public should not expect courts to do so, and courts should not try.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO:  I wanted to play that Jesse, because I feel like everyone should listen to that several times because it's so spot on. The legislative branch has seeded so much control to the judicial branch that they expect the judges to make all these decisions. And she is saying that's not the way it's supposed to work.

JESSE WATTERS, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Are you giving us a civics lesson?

PERINO:  Yes, not that you need one.

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS:  No, of course not. I think the Democrats were smart though to focus their opening statements on Obamacare, on COVID-19. Those are strengths for Democrats. But that's not going to last for this whole week.

The rest of the week, they are going to have to tangle with Amy. And Amy is going to outsmart them, outclass them, out-maneuver them, and you're going to see why she is so well qualified to sit in this position. Something I cannot stop.

It is driving me crazy. Every time the Democrats say you can't do this in the middle of a pandemic. You can't have a hearing. You can't nominate. You can't listen to a case. Emma asked me to do the dishes today. I said I can't. I can't do dishes in the middle of a pandemic. Nothing can happen during a pandemic, according to Democrats.

Two arguments they have, which I think are fundamentally flawed. One, they say that the Republicans are rushing this through, because you have this Obamacare case in front of the court in November. If there was no Obamacare case in November, the Republicans would still vote to confirm her before the election. So that's moot. The other thing they say is that she is going to throw out Obamacare.

Anybody that's followed the court knows they are not going to throw out Obamacare. They're not going to let millions of people go without healthcare. They're dealing with a mandate. They're going to now say the mandate -- yes, it's been repealed, but the rest of the law stands. And that's actually a conservative position.

PERINO:  Yeah.

WATTERS:  Because it's minimalists and it lets the legislators legislate and courts stay out of this.

PERINO:  Also, the Trump administration's case is very weak. And they should have pulled it a long time ago and they wouldn't have had all of these additional political problems like losing the Senate and -- well, not losing the Senate, losing -- Democrats lost seats in 2018.

WATTERS:  And you've been saying that for a very long time.

PERINO:  I have. And I'm just underscoring it here while we have a chance.

So Juan, one of the things that I read from the Democrats this weekend was this parade of horribles, of all the things that are going to result if Amy Coney Barrett is put on the court. And it was preposterous. And I wonder if when she starts speaking like she did today and then we will see her answer questions for the next two days.

If that image that the Democrats are trying to paint for her is just not going to match with the woman that people see answering questions over the next two days.

JUAN WILLIAMS, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Well, I think that the key here, to me, is that the Democrats, in addition to talking about the process which they say is illegitimate, are talking about her record. And I think that you are going to have to have that record come to the fore, Dana, in the next few days. Clearly, Amy Coney Barrett says oh, well, you know, the court shouldn't be making laws or whatever.

But the fact is I would agree with you, by the way. I think Congress is often chicken. They don't take the tough stands and they don't repair things like the Voting Rights Act. They leave it up to the courts. The courts then are flummoxed or uncertain. But I think the Democrats have been talking about two matters that deal with her record.

One, clearly, she is a person who didn't think that Judge -- Chief Justice Roberts made the right call on the Affordable Care Act when he allowed it to continue. And secondly, she is someone who is -- I don't think there's much question opposed to Roe V. Wade, and abortion rights in this country.

So on both those issues, this is a major, major nomination, would make for a six to three conservative court.

And as far as the process goes, it's pretty clear. The American people now, it's a slim majority. But a majority of the American people think this should be up to the next president to make this nomination. And even on abortion rights, most Americans think you shouldn't outlaw abortion in this country.

PERINO:  Well, actually, that case -- you know, she will be asked about that in the next two days. I will let her speak for herself. And no doubt, she will be asked about it. The other thing, Dagen that Democrats are talking about today, while they were saying you can't do any of these things. You can't -- blah, blah, blah. They should we should be passing a COVID relief bill, but they blocked the COVID relief bill from just a few weeks ago.

DAGEN MCDOWELL, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  Half a trillion dollars in the Senate blocked it, never went anywhere. It would have helped children. It would have helped small businesses. It would have helped the unemployed. But I will take it a step further. These Democrats have no intention of helping anybody until after the election, because they don't give a flying damn about the American people.

PERINO:  I'm impressed with your restraint because I was ready for that.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS:  I did, too. It was flying.

MCDOWELL:  Didn't start with that other letter. About people who are struggling financially who are worried about losing their homes and maybe their jobs and even their businesses. I will point to this. There is about

$400 billion from the last Coronavirus relief package that is unused sitting in the Treasury.

All Congress has to do -- unused money is reallocated and reauthorize it, so it can be spent in ways to help those children and those business owners and those unemployed. That's why it's so disgraceful. And why couldn't we just have a moment with this woman who has achieved so much? You are seeing her sit there in front of this confirmation hearing.

Patricia O'Hara saying an integrated life of mind, heart, and soul, the Notre Dame Professor, but we live in an age where public discourse is just full of bilious contempt that if you are a conservative, you are automatically despised by the other side. And that's just a sad day for the country.

PERINO:  Brian, I thought that Professor O'Hara's comments were so wonderfully said, well-put forward. And she said that she -- this was a student of hers. She said I have never seen anybody blow past me in terms of skills and professionalism as Amy Coney Barrett.

BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS ANCHOR:  And we almost didn't get it, right, because it looked as though she was supposed to speak before Amy. And she -

- they couldn't get her through, which we were very familiar with that. But what made her comments hey I'm the dean, but this is the super star. And the fact Notre Dame, which I hear is not a bad school compared to the Ivy League schools, OK.

But I think she is going to be really strong. But it was so over the top with the healthcare pictures, the big pictures. Hi, I want you it meet a family that needs healthcare. And this person is just -- we know about those stories. That's a totally different story. She was sitting there for the longest time with a mask on, even though no one is close to her, which she could've taken the mask off.

Why could the senators take their mask off and she couldn't? So I have no idea about her emotions. Maybe it was better. And then we made this a healthcare debate, which we had really through all of President Obama's eight years. And here's the thing. I worry about the delay of the game, the things that we don't know. Let's find out about her.

But I have a feeling they know they can't touch her, Dana. And I have a feeling it's all going to be about Roe V. Wade, and it's going to be about the issue of Obamacare.

PERINO:  And the process.

KILMEADE:  And I do think they are not going to give him a quorum. So when it's time to vote at a committee, Schumer says no one's showing up. They need two to show up, even a vote no. No one's showing up, then they got a pass a measure to do it without a quorum. Then they're going to bring it to the fore. No Democrat's going to show up.

Then they're going to pass a measure, delay, delay, delay. Who knows what could happen in between? So just wait for something we are not expecting.

PERINO:  Well, we have a lot more to come on this issue. Democrats are rolling out a new tactic to avoid questions about packing the Supreme Court, and we'll unpack that when we come back next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KILMEADE:  All right, the Supreme Court confirmation fight officially underway. Democrats continuing to dodge a key question, will they in fact, pack the high court if Joe Biden wins in November? Will we have 11 Supreme Court justices? Instead of answering, though, they are now accusing Republicans, and they put that in bold in the prompter. It means a lot of trying to do it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  We shouldn't be having this hearing with two members of the committee infected with COVID. It's rushed. It constitutes court- packing. And her views are two extreme to qualify her to serve on this court.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  So this idea that Democrats are packing the court, they have already done it. We're not going to fall into the trap of debating that now after what they have done.

JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE:  (Inaudible) court-packing going on right now. It is going on with Republicans packing the court now. It's not Constitutional, what they are doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILMEADE:  Right. They have a talking point going. And if you thought Joe Biden would finally tell us where he stands on court-packing, think again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Sir, I have got to ask you about packing the courts.

This is the number one thing that I have been asked about from viewers.

BIDEN:  Well, you've been asked by the viewers who are probably Republicans who don't want me continuing to talk about what they are doing to the court right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Well, sir, don't the voters deserve to know?

BIDEN:  No, they don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILMEADE:  Right. They don't, absolutely. We have to elect him to find out exactly what he is going to do. Dagen, I was surprised because this went off the rails this weekend. They all had the same talking points, Chris Coons, Joe Biden, Schumer. They all said they are packing the court by jamming Amy Coney Barrett in and for what they did in the lower courts. No one is buying it.

MCDOWELL:  Well, they believe the American people are stupid enough to buy them trying to change the definition of packing the court to cover for Joe Biden who can't answer the question because he is owned by the left. It's the classic tsk-tsk-tsk finger-wagging at the American people, as if we don't know what court-packing is. And down south, we say this.

Don't spit in my face and tell me it's raining. We know the difference.

They want to subvert the Constitution and add justices to the court so they can continue to make it their legislature.

KILMEADE:  So I was watching your show at 2:00. And I thought Senator Chris Coons was trying to amend what he was saying over the weekend, because he knows we are not buying packing the court.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO:  His colleague, Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska pointed out that that was kind of Orwellian, and that -- when you are replacing people on the court because there is a vacancy that is not court-packing. Court-packing is adding members to the Supreme Court. The other thing I played for Coons, who is a Biden surrogate, is that in 1983, Joe Biden, when he was on the Judiciary Committee, said that court --

KILMEADE:  Even though it's my segment, we have that (Inaudible) we can hear it.

PERINO:  Great, let's look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN:  President Roosevelt clearly had the right to send to the United States Senate and the United States Congress the proposal to pack the court. It was totally within his right to do that. He violated no law. He was legalistically absolutely correct. But it was a bonehead idea. It was a terrible, terrible mistake to make.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILMEADE:  Has it become less boneheaded in 2020?

PERINO:  Well, that's what I asked. And he said, well, he does have a way with words. But the thing is, is that they're just not answering it. I think that's a bad thing. I think Americans do deserve to know before they go. But I also don't think that the election really hangs on this issue. I do want to point out one thing about the quorum.

Republicans -- for Amy Coney Barrett hearing, Republicans are telling me they do not anticipate having a problem getting a quorum. And in fact, remember the way that Kavanaugh was treated. That then led to the midterms.

That was about a month before the midterms. The Republicans added seats in the Senate majority. And now, they have a little bit of a cushion, like, 12 to 10 --

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE:  I thought you needed Democrats' presence.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO:  I think that they are anticipating that they must know that there are a couple Democrats who are going to be OK.

KILMEADE:  Jesse, tell me if I'm overreacting. I believe that if Joe Biden is able to get elected and not tell us what he going to do, nobody is going to tell us what they're going to do. They're going to just go out, present themselves, give a few speeches, but not going to give anything of substance. I think this could be the beginning of the end of having any substance in any presidential campaign.

WATTERS:  I don't think you are overreacting, Brian, on this. Many other things you overreact to, like in the green room, running around like a scared child -- you looked a little nervous.

KILMEADE:  Getting close to mere.

WATTERS:  On the -- he is getting killed on the court-packing question. And it's a self-inflicted wound. I would just say we're not going to pack the courts. He wouldn't actually get hurt that much by saying that. He is actually getting more hurt by not answering the question. And on the other thing about the court-packing answer, they have had three weeks to come up with an answer.

And the Democrats came up with the answer you are. That's their answer. And then they say it's not constitutional. They can't point to one thing in the Constitution that prohibits it from being constitutional, and that's when you know it's not.

KILMEADE:  But Jesse, it's not that it's a hard question, Juan. They are going to do it. If they get it, the filibuster is out. They do a simple majority, and they add two justices. That's why he doesn't want to answer it. Even though he doesn't -- he necessarily knows it's not good for the country. It's good for the party. They are going to do it if they get the Senate and the White House.

WILLIAMS:  I love it that you are speaking for Joe Biden. I think it's very interesting. On the whole, I think this is like early Halloween. Oh my, gosh, what's coming? The far left, they're going to pack the court. Look, this has not been discussed.

KILMEADE:  They put it out.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS:  They didn't put it out. I think you have one or two on the far left who have said, you know, the Republicans have been so abusive of this process, blocking Merrick Garland for more than 400 days. And now with 20 days left, before an election, with Americans already voting, they are trying to force through a nominee of their liking.

KILMEADE:  So you don't think --

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS:  Well, hang on. So you asked a question, let me answer.

KILMEADE:  OK.

WILLIAMS:  So I'm saying to you. This is an abusive process. And they haven't necessarily discussed exactly how does the other party deal with the fact that one party is willing to derail a system to satisfy their own needs?

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE:  Maybe you missed it, but Chris Coons answered that, Juan.

WILLIAMS:  -- argument put forward by, I think it was Ted Cruz, who said, well, this is different. Look at the history. When one party controls the White House and the Senate --

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE:  But you are not answering my question.

WILLIAMS:  But that's not constitutional.

(CROSSTALK)

WILLIAMS:  Under that argument, what you would get, Brian, what you would get is that you would never have a Supreme Court nominee unless you had the same party controlling the House and the Senate.

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE:  We are just talking about packing the courts. Chris Coons said packing the court. You changed the subject again.

WILLIAMS:  No, it's not packing the court. They are forcing to get a conservative vote.

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE:  Dagen, go ahead.

WILLIAMS:  That is stacking.

(CROSSTALK)

PERINO:  Stacking and packing are different.

WATTERS:  OK.

MCDOWELL:  This idea about adding additional justices to the court is not new. And in fact, it is written in a letter authored by Sheldon Whitehouse, Mazie Hirono, Kirsten Gillibrand, Dick Durbin, and Richard Blumenthal threatening to, quote, "restructure the court," which is exactly what they were threatening to do if the justices took up the Second Amendment rights case in New York. They threatened them then, ant that's why people know what they are up to now.

KILMEADE:  Every time you bring it up, they change it to you -- this isn't right to be doing this with Barrett. There's two separates questions, which it could be another segment. And the fact that I went to a single means I should probably just read the tease out. Coming up next, President Trump returned to the campaign trail tonight with a rally in Florida. I think the Orlando area. Plus, what he's saying about his recovery from COVID.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WATTERS:  President Trump back on the campaign trail for the first time since being diagnosed with COVID-19. He is holding a rally in Florida tonight and will be in Pennsylvania and Iowa later this week. The president says he's feeling great.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT:  It seems like I'm immune. So I can go way out of a basement, which I would have done anyway, and which I did because you have to run a country. So the president is in very good shape to fight the battles. I passed the highest test, the highest standards. And I'm in great shape. And I have to tell you, I feel fantastically. I really feel good.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS:  Joe Biden is criticizing Trump's decision to return to the campaign trail. The former VP is in the key swing state of Ohio.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN:  This feels like coming home. The longer Donald Trump is president, the more reckless he seems to get.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS:  I found it funny, Brian. If you look at that appearance in Ohio, there were more Trump supporters there than Biden supporters.

KILMEADE:  Yes. I don't think -- it's not about the size when it comes to Joe Biden, especially in Arizona. He didn't get much of a crowd anyway.

Couple of things, the reason why the Park Avenue, you know, Donald Trump's Park Avenue and, you know, I'm Scranton, or whatever he is blue collar, because Donald Trump is blue-collaring it. But when Donald Trump says I will work every day.

Do multiple things. We have 23 days left. I will do the two or three events a day. I will outwork you. That's a typical blue collar attitude --

(CROSSTALK)

KILMEADE:  He did, and he's about to do it again. And what's been unbelievably frustrating as a small part of the pandemic but he couldn't outwork you because they wouldn't let him. And then he gets sick so he has to sit on the sideline, so a double whammy for him personally and his re- election (Inaudible). OK, where am I at? In battleground states (Inaudible) just give me the keys.

Give me the ball. Let me try to win. And it's scary from his perspective, because the money is not there. I don't know where this money went, but Brad Parscale and everyone, but is he being outspent but he's not being out worked.

WATTERS:  Yeah. And when you're there on the ground, I think it's bigger of a payoff than when you are just on the airwaves. Dana, what do you think about how things stand right now? The president, I think, saw a little dip in the polls after the first debate and after being diagnosed. But now that he has recovered and he's going to hit the campaign trail again, I predict massive tightening in these polls.

PERINO:  I do think it will tighten. I mean, it's closer in the battleground states than it is nationally, and that's why we call them the battlegrounds. But I did note that today, the president's team said that they are doing a multi-million-dollar ad buy to try to get seniors back.

WATTERS:  Yeah.

PERINO:  And we will see who is right. Is the president right that the seniors want to see him out there beating Coronavirus and saying I'm now going to be out there and do all the things that I wanted to do and forget it you haven't seen your grand kids in nine months. Because you can be cured and you're not vulnerable, or the Joe Biden cautious approach, saying we need to be smart, follow the science.

And I guess we will just have to see. But I did want to point out something you mentioned. The president is going to Iowa and --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS:  Florida and Pennsylvania.

PERINO:  He's also going to North Carolina. And I wanted to mention that, because North Carolina looked like it was looking pretty bad for -- especially the Senate candidate there, Thom Tillis, until just last week or in the last 10 days, a big sex scandal erupts with the Democratic candidate. And now, actually you could see that the Republicans think that they have a chance to hold that seat and the president's numbers could improve as well.

So I think that you see him going to the places where he knows he needs to win. North Carolina is one of them.

WATTERS:  And he is also going to a lot of these battle grounds, because there are some really tight Senate races there, Juan. There's in Iowa, tight Senate race, Arizona Senate race, Michigan you got a tight Senate race. And when he goes there, he helps a lot of these senators too.

WILLIAMS: I think a lot of senators are distancing themselves from him because they don't think that he helps them.

WATTERS: Only McSally.

WILLIAMS: OK -- no, no, that's not true. But anyway, I just I have a larger point here, which is I don't think anybody on this panel or anywhere can say with confidence that they know President Trump still isn't able to spread the virus. And so, he goes out --

WATTERS: Fauci just said it like a couple of minutes ago.

WILLIAMS: No. I don't think anybody sitting here has total confidence and can say, oh, yes, I believe all I've heard from the President and his physicians and all these people. We don't know. This guy was sick --

WATTERS: Juan, his physician just released a statement and says --

WILLIAMS: I agree. I agree. No, you're right. You're right. The physician did release such a statement. But everything from Trump is so politicized, all about him. And here he is going out. And he's speaking to large groups of people. He's not wearing the mask, so he's putting all of them at risk.

WATTERS: You can't transmit it, Juan.

WILLIAMS: Some of them may wear the mask --

WATTERS: You can't transmit it.

WILLIAMS: Let me just say something to you. When you think about all the people who've made sacrifices, you think about all the small business owners who would be impacted if this thing comes back with a rage, you got to say, why is he taking this risk, why is he doing this to the American people?

WATTERS: I don't think it's the risk you think it is. And Vice President Mike Pence was on Dana's show earlier and brought that up. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERINO: Are you comfortable with rallies going forward at this point?

MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I really am. We had a great rally here in Columbus, Ohio today. Lots of enthusiasm, a great outdoor rally. And look, one of the things the American people have proved over the last eight months is people know how to put their health first, the health of their families and their neighbors first. And the president and I -- President Trump and I trust the American people.

And the progress that we've made over the last eight months here in Ohio, where the positivity rate is well below three percent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATTERS: Your thoughts, Dagen?

MCDOWELL: Who makes better decisions about your life and your health and your money? Well, you do, the government doesn't. And that's where you're starting to see the divide. Because when Joe Biden says you can't fix the economy until you fix the COVID crisis. Yes, what does that mean? That is a garbage sandwich. It means that I'm going to shut the economy back down.

No. People need to go about their lives and go have and go to be able to go to work in a safe way. And you're going to see that firsthand being down in Florida.

Guess where Walt Disney is open? Florida. Disney World, go and apparently they haven't had one case of COVID. This is from the unions. Not one case of COVID at Disney World. Out in California, it's shut down and even Bob Iger is in a fight with the governor out there. So, can you go about your life and go to work and well, survive? Yes, you can. And expect President Trump to tout say the antibody drugs that are common on the market, the Regeneron drug, there's one from Lilly. These are next steps before there's a vaccine, and the vaccine is on the way.

WATTERS: Yes, you're right. It's the -- not the COVID that's keeping the economy slowed down, it's the lockdowns. Up next, Democrats won't like this. A huge reversal on whether COVID lockdowns are worth it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WILLIAMS: Welcome back. The World Health Organization is drastically reversing course, now advising against harsh lockdowns to stop the spread of COVID-19. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID NABARRO, ENVOY, WHO: The only time we really have a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we'd rather not do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAMS: Meanwhile, a new study finds elementary and high schools may not be super spreading locations. Jesse, I was thinking about this because you said oh, you know, the bad news for Democrats. I'm thinking who does Jesse think is calling for an all-out lockdown in America today?

WATTERS: Well, a lot of these governors, Democrats, in these blue states, talking about New York, New Jersey, California, Michigan, they're continuing lockdowns. Businesses are still closed. They're in phase one or two of opening up.

WILLIAMS: That's different than a lockdown.

WATTERS: Well, they're locking down certain businesses. Like even in this city, you can't even go inside for dinner if you're more than two tables or something. It's destroying the hospitality industry. It's destroying the tourism industry. And it's disproportionately affecting poorer communities, black communities, communities in certain areas.

Schools are completely locked down in the inner city, but more rich suburban white schools are opened up in red states, or a lot of the poor people, they can't afford to work from home. So, they're getting really slaughtered by these draconian lockdowns and it's not justified. Those are worse than the virus.

WILLIAMS: OK, so Dana, I don't think this is total lockdown as Jesse was describing it. I think we're having arguments about things like today, the mask. Mark Meadows was having a press conference, the reporters asked him, wear the mask, he refuses, and leaves. Senator Lee is at the Amy Coney Barrett hearing. He won't wear a mask even though he recently had been diagnosed with COVID. Is that the heart of this debate, the mask?

PERINO: I actually think the lockdown is even more important, but it's not

-- one of those things about the masks, one, I do think it helps protect you. And if you have it, I think it helps protect other people. So, I think that makes sense. I don't have a problem being asked by a business to wear a mask if I'm inside because I want the businesses to survive. And I think that if the President had initially said let's just do this, let's just do it for a few months. Let's just see how it goes. We might be in a better position.

The other thing about lockdowns is that we do know a lot more now. And for example, Governor Cuomo, Bill de Blasio are looking at targeted zip codes.

Now, that's not fair. A lot of zip codes are large, necessarily, and it might be just a few square blocks within a zip code. That's a real problem.

But their peer pressure amongst citizens in those zip codes to do better is, I think, helpful.

I also -- I asked somebody today about that article in The Atlantic about how schools are not super spreader events, because I read that last week and I thought, well, that's great news. This is to open up all the schools.

And then they -- well, she's an economist, not a scientist, and you go back and forth. And then I asked more about the Swedish model that could we do the Swedish model, because that seems pretty good. And then you get all the other information. And it just feels very, very complex.

And I feel like people really understand though that not locking down completely is important. However, look at what's happening in Europe, Central Europe, especially right now. All those case numbers are going up, all those governments having to make tough decisions, and we lag about two months behind them.

WILLIAMS: I know. It's tough. So, Dagen, part of that debate is about indoor dining. Jesse was touching on that. Where do you come out on it? Do you think that's a good thing, a bad thing? What would you do if you were the mayor or the governor?

MCDOWELL: I would have more people dining indoors. You look outside in New York City right now, at least half the restaurants are already going to go out of business in New York. And by the way, New York had the worst outcomes in terms of both the economy and people's health and death because they don't know what they're doing here.

But I would open them up more. It's raining today. These businesses -- I mean, they will have almost no revenue and York City. And I'll point out something else. There's his Great Barrington declaration that thousands of scientists and medical professionals have signed to try and talk about reopening, economies living normally, but protecting those most vulnerable.

And they wrote this. They write about lower childhood vaccination rates, worsening cardiovascular disease outcomes, fewer cancer screenings, deteriorating mental health, leading to greater excess mortality in years to come with the working class and younger members of society carrying the heaviest burden. But that's what this is doing. So, we were very short sighted about the long-term impact.

WILLIAMS: So, Dr. Kilmeade, I had a question for you. What can we do realistically to try to prevent this virus from dragging on for year after year?

KILMEADE: Let me tell you something. The WHO tells us now lockdowns are bad? Are you kidding me? If anybody should have known how to handle a pandemic, they get up in the morning, that's what they do. Now, let's study a pandemic today. They had no idea what to tell us when it happened.

Then they locked down. They go in further review. It hurts -- it raises poverty levels, it hurts farmers. It destroys tourism, it hurts the most vulnerable. They tell you the truth and the comeback from the -- from the economic impact is so great that it's not worth doing. Really? Upon -- we don't need a review. If anyone should have known what to do, it was them.

It took us two months to tell us to wear masks every day. Now, they're mad at us for not wearing masks every day because for too much you told us not to. As if this -- I understand if it snuck up on us, but why did it snuck up on the experts? This is all the study. And that WHO told us to slow down reopening to now say lockdowns your bed is beyond -- I'm beyond aggravated by that.

MCDOWELL: And they were lying for China saying there was no human to human transmission.

KILMEADE: Of course.

WILLIAMS: OK, OK, I don't think that's true, by the way. I think that people learn, the scientist learn to go along. President Trump promising to release even more Russia investigative documents. What we can expect next for you on THE FIVE.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MCDOWELL: President Trump promising to release new Russia probe documents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Documents are being released at a level now that nobody's ever seen before. Things that nobody thought were going to get released have been released. And you seeing it, you're seeing it all the time. You're seeing what's going on.

We caught them cold, we have them cold, and now they have to do something about it. But other documents are going to be released, Maria, which are breathtaking. When you see what's coming out, breathtaking.

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS CHANNEL ANCHOR: Oh, really?

TRUMP: It's about everything. Hillary Clinton is crooked Hillary. I don't call her Crooked Hillary for nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCDOWELL: Brian, what's -- what are we going to see?

KILMEADE: Well, I'm not sure what's next because I don't know what I don't know. But I know this. He's very upset that Durham probe is going to be after the election. And if it's after the election, and he loses, you're probably never going to see it.

Number two is everyone's fixated, and I am too, on July 28th when that memo when John Brennan briefed the President of the United states that there might be some -- President Obama -- that there might be something in that memo that said that Hillary Clinton looking to divert attention from her e- mails, was setting up a Trump-Russia connection. And people say, well, that's Russian disinformation. Well, why are you briefing President Obama if it's Russian disinformation? And that's the focus that changes everything, I think.

MCDOWELL: And Brian brought, Juan, brought up the point that there -- we found out that there won't be any indictments from John Durham before the election from Bill Barr. President Trump very upset about that, but on the other side of it, you want them to restore the trust in the FBI. You want them to get it right. And if that means taking time after the election, then so be it.

WILLIAMS: Right. I mean, if he's got something, let's see it. But I think that, you know, you got to keep in mind here the overwhelming evidence is that Russia interfered in the 2016 election. Trump's own national security officials have said this, and that they continue to interfere in the 2020 election, and yet Trump says oh, this is a hoax. And he won't say hey, Russia, stop it. Stop it. If it's a hoax, just say Russia stop it because right now they say Russia continues to do this.

MCDOWELL: So -- because, Jesse, because Obama has cut it out to Putin work so well, and he stood by as the Clinton campaign basically engineered spying on her opponent with the dossier.

WATTERS: Juan is crafty. See how he pivots from Russian election interference when we're talking about them targeting Trump and framing him for collusion. We're not talking about election interference. We're talking about Hillary, the Justice Department, the FBI, and the CIA making Donald Trump's campaign look like they're guilty of hacking Hillary's e-mails and interfering with the election.

We caught him, we have evidence, and now we just want to see all the documents because we want the truth.

WILLIAMS: You caught what?

WILLIAMS: If it's -- if it's too much to ask, then fine. We just want answers.

WILLIAMS: No, I just think conspiracy theories can go --

WATTERS: Juan, it was a handwritten note one thing that Hillary is trying to frame Trump for collusion.

WILLIAMS: What? This is -- look, he --

(CROSSTALK)

WATTERS: That's not Russia disinformation because it's exactly what happened.

WILLIAMS: Yes, it is.

WATTERS: She framed him for collusion.

WILLIAMS: Oh, no, you didn't have that.

WATTERS: Because she blamed him for collusion for the entire campaign.

WILLIAMS: I'll leave it alone.

WATTERS: Thank you.

MCDOWELL: How does this play out in the election?

PERINO: Well, I think it is a very important story to get to the bottom of.

I just would say, if you're the Trump campaign, would you rather have this be your headline for the next 23 days or do you want to talk about your ability to bring this economy back? And I think that the fact that this might not come -- well, Durham said it's not coming out until after the election, as disappointing that might be to some, I do think getting it right is good, getting the information out is good, getting to the bottom of it is good. But I would focus on the economy and the way that the President can bring it back better than Biden, if that's going to be their closing argument.

MCDOWELL: "ONE MORE THING," next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

PERINO: It's time now for "ONE MORE THING." We got a lot of time so I'm going to tell you this story about this cute little horse. It's a miniature horse and a pair of dogs. Now, these two pooches Lola and Nacho, they love to take the nine-year-old miniature horse named Bon Jovi, nicknamed Bonnie, for a walk. And whenever they see the rain being clipped onto Bonnie's halter, they both jump to lead him up to the stables.

Now, Bonnie was rescued from an abusive home and adopted by Jessica Chemin four years ago. And now Bonnie lives a very happy life as you can see with Lola and Nacho at their home in Cape Town, South Africa. A lovely place, actually. Brian, that's a lovely place. Have you been there?

KILMEADE: No, I would love to go. It's a long plane ride, I heard.

PERINO: Long plane ride but totally worth it. All right, you're next.

KILMEADE: All right. Oh, I didn't know that. OK.

PERINO: Oh, wait, you're not really. Juan is next.

KILMEADE: Yes, Juan.

WILLIAMS: OK, all right, here we go. So, baby, what a comeback story. I watched yesterday as the Washington football team played the Los Angeles Rams. Take a look as Alex Smith, the veteran quarterback, throws his first pass in almost two years. To understand the power of this moment, you have to go back to November 2018 when Smith was sacked and suffered a compound fracture of his leg, broken in two places. He underwent 17 surgery, now has a titanium rod in his leg.

The odds against Smith ever playing professional football again were so high. And clearly, this guy doesn't need the money, folks. But there he was on the field yesterday, and there was this family applauding him. And there was his family, the kids, I don't understand it. Dad, what are you doing?

But what Alex Smith did to me, as I was watching yesterday, went beyond the fact that the Washington football team lost. This was a man, a determined man getting up off the mat and getting back in the game. What an incredible life lesson from Alex Smith.

WATTERS: It reminds me a lot of the president. You know, you get sick, you get better, you come back out in the field. Very brave.

WILLIAMS: Oh, my God. I think I'm suffering --

KILMEADE: He almost amputated his leg. He almost amputated it.

WILLIAMS: Yes, that's right. Unbelievable story.

PERINO: Jesse.

WATTERS: Happy Columbus Day, everybody. Or as Joe Biden said, happy Indigenous People's Day. Come on, Sleepy. You're better than that.

Everybody sing along with me. In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

Brian, what were the ships he came over on?

KILMEADE: Nina, Pinta, and Santa Maria.

WATTERS: Correct.

MCDOWELL: Bingo.

WATTERS: Correct. Not the Mayflower. That was some other guy.

PERINO: Would you be surprised if I Brian knew that?

WATTERS: No. Brian knows this stuff. He's a history guy.

KILMEADE: The Santa Maria was found right out -- right off the Dominican Republic.

WATTERS: All right, stop showing off. You got one, though.

PERINO: Brian, is that going to be your next book?

WATTERS: Yes.

KILMEADE: I should write Columbus.

WATTERS: You should.

PERINO: You're next.

KILMEADE: Oh, I didn't know. All right, so I was -- I was asked to do a feature on National Hispanic Heritage Month. And I wanted to interview two lawmakers with the Hispanic culture and their background means so much to their success, Brian Mast and Marco Rubio. And they talked about the foundation, how happy they are to be here, but how important it was to keep their Hispanic Heritage alive. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BRIAN MAST (R-FL): I grew up wanting to be in the army for exactly the reason of heritage. It was because of those that came before me. For my kids, that's probably going to be the biggest thing that they remember out of me is what did they do in that war, in that conflict, when they were in the army.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILMEADE: Because on his mother's side, they all fought in the wars, and they all played a major role in Revolutionary War of course in Texas and everything else. And he just talked about that and the -- and the reason why it's so important.

PERINO: That's cool.

KILMEADE: The fastest-growing minority in the country.

PERINO: Where can you see that?

KILMEADE: You can see it on Fox Nation. Double click on it, especially this month.

PERINO: All right, excellent, excellent. Dagen.

MCDOWELL: And shout out to Geraldo. I know we've been paying tribute to his career.

KILMEADE: Right. And it's outstanding and it's still ongoing.

MCDOWELL: It is. But you know, what he did with Willowbrook was really worth remembering. And people forget how that exposed the abuse of people, the mentally disabled in this country.

On a lighter note, it's OK, take a look at this golden retriever who has a very special greeting for dad returning from deployment overseas, a four- month military deployment. Maggie waits, had her camera rolling when her husband Michael came home. And that is their golden retriever Odin. He obviously cannot contain himself.

I know that Michael was on deployment but let me say one thing. You know what, you go downstairs to get the mail and you come back and your dogs always greet you like that. They have no sense of time.

PERINO: I think it's so sweet that she filmed that, and she let the dog greet him first because she knew that she probably was going to have to let

-- the dog was going to make sure that he -- she welcomed her dad home.

MCDOWELL: Yes, exactly.

PERINO: Well done everybody. All right, that's it for us.

END

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