Just bad timing, that's all
June 19, 2018 12:46 PM Subscribe
I have a 2010 Kia Magentis (Optima, for my friends to the south). It's got 175,000 km/105,00 miles on it, and has been dealer maintained since I purchased it in 2011. It's been stalling at low speed occasionally and/or not starting/starting and then stalling. A trip to the dealer's that I hoped would reveal she needed a new fuel line filter instead showed a problem with the timing assembly.
Their recommendation is a new car, as replacing the timing chain (not belt), tensioner, guide and arm assembly, CVVT, and oil flow control valve (because why would you rip apart the engine and not do all that while you're there?) will come to over $2,200.
In the last year I've bought new winter tires and had extensive work done on the brakes (fronts in April, rears last summer). I've been going to this dealership since I bought this car and trust them, and I don't want to throw good money after bad, but the timing kind of sucks. I could get a new(er) car, but have other priorities. Would I be crazy to just get the timing chain etc. replaced hoping to get another couple of years out of her, or would I be setting myself up to be nibbled to death by ducks?
Their recommendation is a new car, as replacing the timing chain (not belt), tensioner, guide and arm assembly, CVVT, and oil flow control valve (because why would you rip apart the engine and not do all that while you're there?) will come to over $2,200.
In the last year I've bought new winter tires and had extensive work done on the brakes (fronts in April, rears last summer). I've been going to this dealership since I bought this car and trust them, and I don't want to throw good money after bad, but the timing kind of sucks. I could get a new(er) car, but have other priorities. Would I be crazy to just get the timing chain etc. replaced hoping to get another couple of years out of her, or would I be setting myself up to be nibbled to death by ducks?
Response by poster: Thanks, Brockles, doing that too, but mostly wondered if it was worth doing AT ALL.
posted by kate4914 at 1:00 PM on June 19, 2018
posted by kate4914 at 1:00 PM on June 19, 2018
Even if that price isn't in Canadian dollars (e.g. ~$1700 USD), this seems like a no-brainer to me. It's almost always cheaper to maintain the car you have.
We have a 2008 Spectra5 with 200K+ miles. Currently we budget for $700-1500 USD of maintenance each year and a one-off $2200 would be well within our comfort zone. No matter how you slice it, there's almost no way that this would be more expensive than replacing it. Eventually something will happen that renders it totally unrepairable or undriveable, but until then we just plan to continue fixing it.
posted by pullayup at 1:16 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
We have a 2008 Spectra5 with 200K+ miles. Currently we budget for $700-1500 USD of maintenance each year and a one-off $2200 would be well within our comfort zone. No matter how you slice it, there's almost no way that this would be more expensive than replacing it. Eventually something will happen that renders it totally unrepairable or undriveable, but until then we just plan to continue fixing it.
posted by pullayup at 1:16 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Even at $2,200 I'd still do the work and keep the car if there are no other issues
It is nowhere near as ambigious a repair cost as the dealer has made you think. If the car is in otherwise good condition, it's a no brainer to fix it, for me.
posted by Brockles at 1:19 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
It is nowhere near as ambigious a repair cost as the dealer has made you think. If the car is in otherwise good condition, it's a no brainer to fix it, for me.
posted by Brockles at 1:19 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Best answer: 100,000 miles and needing to replace a timing assembly isn't unreasonable -- and likely to get you another 100,000 miles on the new timing parts. $2200 seems expensive, but compared to a new car it's definitely worth doing.
And all the stuff they're describing does breathe a lot of life into a car, it's not just "let's hold it together a little longer". Also have them throw a new water pump in there too, because that's probably going to go soon as well, and an alternator if you're really feeling good, those should only add a couple hundred bucks to the deal and stave off those common old-car failures.
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:42 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
And all the stuff they're describing does breathe a lot of life into a car, it's not just "let's hold it together a little longer". Also have them throw a new water pump in there too, because that's probably going to go soon as well, and an alternator if you're really feeling good, those should only add a couple hundred bucks to the deal and stave off those common old-car failures.
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:42 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: ...and yes, that is in Canadian dollars. Should've included that.
posted by kate4914 at 1:42 PM on June 19, 2018
posted by kate4914 at 1:42 PM on June 19, 2018
100,000 miles and needing to replace a timing assembly isn't unreasonable...
Gotta disagree on this. 100,000 miles is not an exceptional amount of mileage on most cars built in this century, especially one built a mere 8 years ago. Doubly-so given that the car utilizes a timing chain, which are far more bulletproof than systems using timing belts. For the most part, timing chains rarely, if ever, need replaced, and certainly not at 100,000 miles.
I’d definitely take the car to an independent garage with a good reputation and get a second opinion.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:15 PM on June 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Gotta disagree on this. 100,000 miles is not an exceptional amount of mileage on most cars built in this century, especially one built a mere 8 years ago. Doubly-so given that the car utilizes a timing chain, which are far more bulletproof than systems using timing belts. For the most part, timing chains rarely, if ever, need replaced, and certainly not at 100,000 miles.
I’d definitely take the car to an independent garage with a good reputation and get a second opinion.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:15 PM on June 19, 2018 [3 favorites]
Timing chains need replacement after closer to 200k than 100k - unless there's visible damage.
Stalling at low speed (RPMs?) it may simply be clogged/ dirty ECM sensor. Getting those cleaned up is a lot less work (and less expensive) and just taking a look to see if they're gunked up is a cheap investigation.
posted by porpoise at 3:05 PM on June 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Stalling at low speed (RPMs?) it may simply be clogged/ dirty ECM sensor. Getting those cleaned up is a lot less work (and less expensive) and just taking a look to see if they're gunked up is a cheap investigation.
posted by porpoise at 3:05 PM on June 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Porpoise, would a bad/gummy ECM deliver the same error code?
posted by kate4914 at 3:58 PM on June 19, 2018
posted by kate4914 at 3:58 PM on June 19, 2018
Don't know - but after hearing about all this, would you trust what they report unless you see the actual (ODB2?) code and look it up yourself?
posted by porpoise at 4:26 PM on June 19, 2018
posted by porpoise at 4:26 PM on June 19, 2018
Stalling at low speed (RPMs?) it may simply be clogged/ dirty ECM sensor.
It could be a ton of things. A timing issue wouldn't give the same error code as a faulty Mass airflow* sensor though. The calls for a second opinion seem sensible. Especially as if they confirm the diagnosis they can quote for the work anyway.
* which is presumably what porpoise means from their wording, as there is not an 'ECM sensor' - an ECM is the engine control module, so the box that reads all the sensors values.
posted by Brockles at 4:32 PM on June 19, 2018
It could be a ton of things. A timing issue wouldn't give the same error code as a faulty Mass airflow* sensor though. The calls for a second opinion seem sensible. Especially as if they confirm the diagnosis they can quote for the work anyway.
* which is presumably what porpoise means from their wording, as there is not an 'ECM sensor' - an ECM is the engine control module, so the box that reads all the sensors values.
posted by Brockles at 4:32 PM on June 19, 2018
Huh, wait one. Apparently the timing chains on those KIAs are supposed to last the life of the motor (but the guides could wear over time but shouldn't be an issue until well after 100,000 miles.
posted by porpoise at 4:32 PM on June 19, 2018
posted by porpoise at 4:32 PM on June 19, 2018
I'm thinking the CVVT (variable valve timing) device is what's causing the stalling, and the rest might be "while we're in there" stuff, like the timing chain has to be removed to get to the CVVT device on the camshaft. I don't have specific knowledge about this particular engine, but I know in other brands, if the variable valve timing device sticks in the "advanced" position, it can cause low speed/idling issues.
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:48 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Larry David Syndrome at 4:48 PM on June 19, 2018 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: You're right on the money, Larry David Syndrome. Timing chain, tensioner and guides are the "while we're there" items.
posted by kate4914 at 6:12 PM on June 19, 2018
posted by kate4914 at 6:12 PM on June 19, 2018
Timing chain, tensioner and guides are the "while we're there" items.
That, my friend, is a dealership looking to soak you. I've owned three cars in my life that used timing chains, and they never needed maintenance, let alone changing. And I went over 300,000 miles on them.
Legitimate "while you're there" items at 100,000 miles would be something like changing the water pump since you're already changing the timing belt.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:03 AM on June 20, 2018
That, my friend, is a dealership looking to soak you. I've owned three cars in my life that used timing chains, and they never needed maintenance, let alone changing. And I went over 300,000 miles on them.
Legitimate "while you're there" items at 100,000 miles would be something like changing the water pump since you're already changing the timing belt.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:03 AM on June 20, 2018
Response by poster: Thanks to all who chimed in with their thoughts. I ended up asking for three local quotes, got one that wasn't much less than the dealership and two declined the job. I got it fixed at the dealership where I've always gone and hope to be driving it for another few years!
posted by kate4914 at 4:33 PM on July 20, 2018
posted by kate4914 at 4:33 PM on July 20, 2018
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Get the work re-quoted at an independent mechanic. Even at $2,200 I'd still do the work and keep the car if there are no other issues, but I don't know why you need to spend that kind of labour rate on an 8 year old car. Get the work done with genuine parts at an independent, is my vote.
The dealer is pushing you to a new car because they want to sell you a car, not because it makes sense to do so instead of repairing.
posted by Brockles at 12:53 PM on June 19, 2018 [8 favorites]