WEBVTT ADAM: WELCOME BACK TO "CLOSE UP." FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER IS CONTEMPLATING A BID FOR THE WHITE HOUSE AND EXPECTS TO MAKE A DECISION ABOUT RUNNING AT THE END OF THE YEAR. HE DID POLITICS AND EGGS ON FRIDAY, SPEAKING TO THE NEW ENGLAND COUNCIL ABOUT HIS NEW EFFORTS TO END PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING AND SAT DOWN TO TALK WITH US AFTER THE SPEECH. ADAM: GENERAL HOLDER, FIRST LET’S TALK ABOUT WHAT BRINGS YOU TO NEW HAMPSHIRE, THE EFFORT TO END PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING. YOU SAID IT IS POSSIBLE WE WILL SEE A BLUE WAVE ACROSS THE COUNTRY. YOU WILL HAVE TO CONVINCE DEMOCRATS TO WILLINGLY GIVE UP POWER AND NOT REDISTRICT IN THEIR OWN FAVOR. HOW DO YOU CONVINCE PEOPLE TO NOT ACT IN THEIR OWN SELF-INTEREST? >> WE ARE TRYING TO TAKE POWER AWAY FROM REPUBLICANS THEY ILLEGITIMATELY GOT IN 2011, SO DEMOCRATS HAVE TO SUPPORT CANDIDATES WHO WILL STAND FOR A FAIR REDISTRICTING PROCESS IN 2021. AS I HAVE GONE AROUND THE COUNTRY, I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE GET ENTHUSED ABOUT THIS NOTION THAT THEY HAVE NOT FOCUSED ON BEFORE. I THINK WE WILL BE SUCCESSFUL AT IT READ AND BY 2021, WE WILL HAVE IN PLACE SUFFICIENT NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO WILL DROP AIRLINES. -- DRAW FAIR LINES. ADAM: HOW DO YOU CONVINCE THEM NOT TO TAKE IT TOO FAR TO THEIR OWN ADVANTAGE? >> THIS IS NOT AN ATTEMPT TO GERRYMANDER FOR DEMOCRATS. I HAVE SAID I WILL NOT BE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. PRESIDENT OBAMA SAYS HE WILL NOT BE SUPPORTIVE OF THAT. THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS EFFORT IS ABOUT. ADAM: THERE IS A LOT THAT LEAVES DEMOCRATS IN SHOCK ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION. YOU HAVE A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE YOU WERE THE CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OF THE COUNTRY. DO YOU SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING WITH JEFF SESSIONS AND THINK ABOUT PUTTING YOURSELF IN HIS SHOES, AND WHAT WOULD I BE DOING IN THIS MAELSTROM OF LEGAL AND ETHICAL QUESTIONS? >> IT IS A HARD THING TO IMAGINE. WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DOING TO THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND ATTORNEY GENERAL IS UNPRECEDENTED. WE HAVE NEVER SEEN THE PRESIDENT TALK ABOUT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN THAT WAY, THE F.B.I. IN THAT WAY. IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE WHAT JEFF SESSIONS AND ROD ROSENSTEIN ARE GOING THROUGH. MY HOPE IS THE WILL KEEP UPPERMOST IN THEIR MINDS THE PROTECTION OF THE INSTITUTION AND THINK LONG-TERM ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE ACTIONS THEY TAKE WILL BE LONG-TERM. IT IS A DIFFICULT JOB THEY HAVE RIGHT NOW GIVEN WHAT THIS PRESIDENT HAS DONE, AND I SUSPECT WILL DO. I DON’T ENVY THEM THAT JOB. I HOPE THEY WILL DO IT WELL WITH AN EYE TOWARD PROTECTING THE INSTITUTIONS. ADAM: WE HEAR ABOUT A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS LOOMING. DO YOU SEE THAT IN THE COMING MONTHS AS ROBERT MUELLER WRAPS UP HIS INVESTIGATION? >> I THINK IT IS ALMOST INEVITABLE WE WILL SEE SOMETHING OF SIGNIFICANCE IN TERMS OF A CRISIS, CONSTITUTIONAL, I DON’T KNOW. IT SEEMS WILL MUST HAVE TWO TRAINS HEADING RIGHT AT EACH OTHER -- IT SEEMS ALMOST LIKE WE HAVE TWO TRAINS HEADING RIGHT AT EACH OTHER. IT SEEMS ALMOST INEVITABLE. ADAM: WITH WHAT WE KNOW NOW, DO YOU BELIEVE THE PRESIDENT HAS OBSTRUCTED JUSTICE? >> A TECHNICAL OBSTRUCTION CASE YOU COULD PROBABLY MAKE. I AM NOT SURE AT THIS POINT IS ONE THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO BRING. I DON’T HAVE INSIGHT INTO THE EVIDENCE THAT BOB MUELLER HAS ACQUIRED OR WILL ACQUIRE IN THE COMING MONTHS. I THINK AT THIS POINT, YOU COULD PROBABLY MAKE A TECHNICAL CASE IN TERMS OF THE LESTER HOLT INTERVIEW, OTHER THINGS THAT HAVE OCCURRED. I THINK THERE IS A TECHNICAL OF SECTION CASE THERE. ADAM: WE HAVE SEEN OTHER PRESIDENTS IN SIMILAR SITUATIONS WITH SPECIAL COUNSELS TREAD LIGHTLY. AS YOU NOTED, THE PRESIDENT HAS TAKEN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TACK. WHAT IS AT STAKE WHEN THE PRESIDENT IS WILLING TO INTRODUCE POLITICS INTO A LEGAL OR JUDICIAL PROCEEDING? YOU KNOW NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, THE PRESIDENT IS GOING TO TAKE HIS POSITION AND TAKE ABOUT A THIRD OF THE COUNTRY WITH HIM IN DECLARING THIS AN ILLEGITIMATE ATTACK ON HIMSELF AND HIS ADMINISTRATION. I THINK THAT IS THE MOST DANGEROUS THING. THIS IS NOT ABOUT ONE MAN. THIS IS ABOUT OUR NATION. THIS IS ABOUT OUR SYSTEM OF JUSTICE. TO INJECT DOUBT INTO WHETHER OR NOT CAREER F.B.I. AGENTS AND CAREER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROSECUTORS AND PERSONALLY BOB MUELLER, WHOSE REPUTATION IS UNQUESTIONED, HE IS A GOOD MAN, A PERSON OF INTEGRITY, TO CAST ALL OF THAT INTO DOUBT FOR PERSONAL REASONS IS EXTREMELY DISTRESSING TO ME, TO THINK THE F.B.I. WOULD BE VIEWED AS A POLITICAL INSTITUTION AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WOULD BE VIEWED AS A POLITICAL INSTITUTION WHEN IT IS NOT. IT HAS TO BE SEEN -- THEY HAVE TO BE SEEN AS PLACES THAT USE THEIR POWER IN A NEUTRAL, NONPOLITICAL WAY. THE PRESIDENT HAS MADE THAT JOB MORE DIFFICULT. ADAM: SHIFTING GEARS. A LOT OF THE LAST WEEK HAS BEEN ABSORBED IN THE MEDIA FIRESTORM OVER THE TWEET ROSANNE PUT OUT ABOUT VALERIE JARRETT. IS THERE ANYTHING WE CAN LEARN FROM THIS OR IS THIS JUST ANOTHER CULTURAL CAR WRECK DISTRACTING US? >> I THINK WHAT VALERIE SAID WAS GOOD, THAT THIS IS A TEACHING MOMENT. THAT WE SHOULD REFLECT ON THAT AND UNDERSTAND THE PAIN ASSOCIATED WITH SOME OF THE WORDS THAT ROSEANNE USED, AND TRY TO MAKE OURSELVES BETTER. TRY TO DEAL WITH THE LONG TERM, LONG THAT STILL CONFRONT US AS A NATION. IT WAS UNFORTUNATE, BUT I THINK VALERIE HANDLED IT WITH CLASS AND INSIGHT. ADAM: WHERE SEEMINGLY CONFRONTING RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY ON A HIGH LEVEL BASIS. OBVIOUSLY, THAT TWEET WAS RACIST NO QUESTION ABOUT IT. BUT YOU HAVE PEOPLE SAYING IT IS A FAIR COMPARISON. IT SEEMS WE HAVE ENTERED THIS PARALLEL UNIVERSE WHERE PEOPLE ARE CLAIMING THINGS THAT ARE RACIST ARE NOT. HOW DO YOU UNTIE THAT KNOT? >> WE SHOULD HAVE FRANK CONVERSATIONS ABOUT THESE ISSUES , THE ROSEANNE INCIDENT. THE PEOPLE THAT THINK THAT IS NOT A RACIST COMMENT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO EXPLAIN WHY THEY THINK IT IS NOT. GIVE THEM THE SPACE FOR THAT. BE GENEROUS IN THAT REGARD. TRY TO CONVINCE PEOPLE GIVEN THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS IN THIS NATION AND THE CHARGED IN WHICH SHE USED THAT IT WAS IN FACT A RACIST STATEMENT. SOME PEOPLE WILL HOLD ONTO WHATEVER THEIR BELIEFS ARE. BUT I BELIEVE A SUBSTANTIAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE IF YOU ENGAGE THEM IN CONVERSATION IN A RESPECTF WAY, THEY CAN CHANGE THEIR LIVES. ADAM: WE ARE IN NEW HAMPSHIRE. IN YOUR SPEECH, YOU NOTED YOU ARE THINKING ABOUT RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT. HOW DOES THIS PROCESS WORK FOR YOU? IT IS ASKING MYSELF SOME QUESTIONS, ASKING QUESTIONS OF AND HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE IN MY FAMILY, AND MAKING SOME DETERMINATIONS ABOUT WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS SOMETHING I WANT TO DO. I WILL WORK THROUGH THAT PROCESS AND COME UP WITH A DECISION SOMETIME EARLY NEXT YEAR. ADAM: IF YOU RUN, REPUBLICANS WILL WANT TO EXAMINE THE RECORD. JOURNALISTS WILL WANT TO EXAMINE THE RECORD. LET’S TAKE SOME OF THE MORE CONTROVERSIAL THINGS THAT HAVE GONE. FOR INSTANCE, THE I.R.S. SITUATION. WHY DID YOU DECIDE NOT TO PROSECUTE ANYONE IN REGARDS TO TARGETING TEA PARTY GROUPS? >> THE QUESTION IS WHETHER THERE WAS A CRIMINAL SANCTION THAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT. THE I.R.S. APOLOGIZED. THERE WERE CHANGES THAT NEEDED TO BE MADE IN THE WAY PROGRAMS WERE ADMINISTERED. THE QUESTION FOR THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WAS WHETHER CRIMINAL CHARGES SHOULD HAVE BEEN BROUGHT. THE DETERMINATION WE MADE WAS THERE WAS NOT SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE FOR US TO BRING CRIMINAL CHARGES. ADAM: HAVE YOU TALKED TO PRESIDENT OBAMA ABOUT NEW HAMPSHIRE IN TERMS OF YOUR PROCESS HERE? >> I HAVE SPOKEN TO THE PRESIDENT ON A NUMBER THINGS. I DON’T REALLY TALK ABOUT OUR CONVERSATIONS. ADAM: HOW YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION, DOES HE FACTOR INTO THAT AT ALL? HAVING WORKED FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA, I’M SURE YOU’RE KEEN TO CARRY ON PART OF THAT LEGACY. >> I THINK THE OBAMA YEARS WERE GOOD ONES FOR THE COUNTRY IN TERMS OF SAVING THE ECONOMY, THE PROGRESS WE MADE ON ISSUES THAT WERE MY RESPONSIBILITY AS ATTORNEY GENERAL WITH REGARD TO CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, PROTECTION OF LGB RIGHT WE CERTAINLY WANT TOS. TERRY ON THE OBAMA LEGACY -- WE CERTAINLY WANT TO CARRY ON THE OBAMA LEGACY. THIS IS NOT A QUESTION OF RESTORING THE OBAMA YEARS. THIS IS A QUESTION OF WHAT WE WILL DO 2020 AND GOING FORWARD. ADAM IS THERE AN ISSUE NOW THAT NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT THAT HAS YOU CONCERNED? OBVIOUSLY, GERRYMANDERING. THE IMPLICATION THAT ARISES FROM THAT YOU DON’T SEE COVERED ENOUGH IN THE MEDIA. >> I THINK ONE OF THE SILVER LININGS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS THE MEDIA IS ENGAGED. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE ENGAGED AND FOCUSING ON ISSUES, CIVIC ISSUES IN WAY IN THE PAST WE HAVE NOT BEEN. I THINK PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT PULLING OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD’S, TALKING ABOUT GOING BACK IN REGARDS TO OUR DEAL WITH IRAN, TALKING ABOUT TARIFFS AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE, TALKING ABOUT GERRYMANDERING. I THINK WE’VE SEEN GREATER INVOLVEMENT AND ENGAGEMENT BY THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THAT MIGHT BE THE SILVER LINING FOR WHAT IS OTHERWISE A PRETTY BAD ADMINISTRATION. ADAM: ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME. WILL WE SEE YOU BACK HERE?