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YESTERYEAR
Which country can claim to be the World's oldest democracy?
Russell Campbell, Dunedin, New Zealand
- I'm biased, of course, but the United States has the oldest continuous democracy, dating back to 1776 when the 13 states declared independence and eventually gave the British a mighty whoopin'. Since then, for 231 years, every leader has been elected and there have been no kings, no queens, no military juntas, no conquerors and no dictatorships. End of discussion.
Bob, Milford Michigan
- Bob from Michigan I must comment on some of your statements :
1) The American Colonists hardly gave the British a “mighty whoopin”, but rather it was a joint effort, as are most things. Many countries directly or indirectly affected the outcome of the American Revolutionary War. Most of the gunpowder used by the Continental Army came from France. Direct French support starting in 1788 and before the wars end the Spanish and Dutch were fighting the British as well. Not directly in ally with the Americans, but the combined navy of these countries exceeded that of the British fleet and keep the British busy on many fronts. Catherine the Great of Russia created the League of Armed Neutrality which put further pressure on British resources and allowed supplies to reach the war engaged colonies. Meanwhile, the US Continental Army often took the stand of conducting a war of attrition rather than engagement in open decisive conflicts. Indeed, militarily speaking, Washington had only one real decisive military victory: at Yorktown. The rest were great public relations (e.g. his crossing of the Delaware), but of little military value. Yet the overall strategy won. Yorktown did not end the war, but it and the other ongoing pressures brought the British to the bargaining table.
2) The existing US government was not established in 1776, nor was it even the start of the Revolutionary war, which started in 1775. 1776 was just a year of declaring independence; it did not mean instant government formation. The Constitution, which forms the basis for the modern US government only came into effect, by its own self definition, in 1788 and the government it defined started operations on March 4, 1789, even though Rhode Island did not ratify the document until the next year. Thus we must decrease your accounting to 218 or 219 years of continue government depending on which date you select.
3) From 1861-1865 there were two governments that claimed sovereignty over 11 southern states, and those 11 states had no say in the federal election of 1864, nullifying their presidential democratic contribution in that election. After the Civil War the US congress considered the southern states as conquered provinces and set up marital law during post war reconstruction. Thus only a geographical part of the US can be said to have participated in a continual democracy, without military rule, since 1789. The ruling of Texas vs. White,
in 1869, states the Supreme Court's position that the Union was indivisible and indissoluble matters little, as the above mentioned exclusion of democratic contributions can not be undone.
Kevin, Los Angeles US
- Not to mention that the United States is not a democracy, but a republic.
A minor point, but one that is constantly mistated.
Joe,
- Marital law in the southern U.S.? Does that mean southern bachelors couldn't vote before 1861?
Jamie, Bath, England
- Has no-one mentioned Iceland? Their parliament, the Althingi, was created in the early 11th century.
Dave, Portsmouth UK
- Everyone could have saved a lot of typing responding to Bob with these two words: "Gerald Ford".
He wasn't elected. He was appointed.
Democracy is not my beloved birth-nation's strong suit. Our strength lies in finding just how far we can push the boundaries of Democracy. Turns out it's pretty stretchy.
Chad, Austin, TX USA
- Funny that some claim America have the oldest democracy, even more so since up until the early 60's people of color and women were not eligible to vote
Philippe, London UK
- Philippe, you might want to check your facts on that one...
David, United States
- Actually I have heard that Faeroe Islands has the oldest democracy. But they are still under the Danish, so I do not know how that would count and I do not know when they formed their parliament.
Gudni, Reykjavik Iceland
- Finland gave full rights to women to vote in 1906 and they were also good for being candidates in every elections on that date. That's earlier than anywhere else. That can be called oldest democracy by modern means. Remember, we had no slavery, nor was the right only in paper like for black Americans till 1960s.
Pekka, Finland
- Scott, the Isle of Man is an independent nation, often wrongly considered part of the UK. It is not and never has been. It has a very good claim to being the world's oldest democracy, with the oldest continuously existing parliament in the world dating from AD 979.
Paul Tiere, London, UK
- Democracy is a Greek Word. Socrates drank hemlock 400 years before Jesus rather than live elsewhere, and it was a Jury of his Peers that condemned him to death. What, in fact, caused his death was his rejection of his own democratic leadership.
John Galt, UK
- You forget one thing all the time: it isn't enough that you have the right to vote - you must also have the right to be a CANDIDATE! These are two different things. Women were allowed to vote in New Zealand in 1893 but they were not eligible until 1919.
Also, Icelandic parliament didn't have a real universal suffrage until the 20th century.
Finland was the first state to give women the right to be a candidate in 1906 and Finland had the first female members of parliament in the world in 1907. Therefore, Finland was the first country with true universal democracy. Also all the minorities and the landless people had the same rights.
At that time Finland was an autonomous part of the Russian Empire and got full independence later, in 1917. In essence, Finland was a monarchy with its own parliament but the Russian tsar as the head of the state.
I think you can't call a country democratic if it excludes women, minorities or poor people from elections/eligibility. That is what has happened everywhere in the world until the 20th century. Finland was the first to have universal rights.
Jonas, Helsinki, Finland
- I just want to clear something up about monarchy. There is a difference between absolute monarchy and constitutional monarchy. An absolute monarchy rules absolutely and undemocratically without recourse to parliament. A constitutional monarchy on the other hand is merely a ceremonial, figurehead. Executive power r rests in the hands of the prime minister and the cabinet. All monarchies in Western Europe and Japan are of this sort and completely demotic. Now, not all rebuilds are democracies. There are many republics around the world which are not democratic and where the individual does not rule supreme. Republics as and of themselves are not necessarily democratic. Just as monarchies are not all undemocratic. Most are democratic n the modern World. The final thing I want to say is that most democracies prior to the late 19th Century were partial or limited democracies only, such as Great Britain and the USA. Both of these countries were slave owning societies to one extent or the other. Slavery was abolished in d the UK in 1807 and in the British colonies as a whole in 1834. America did not finally abolish slavery until 1865 and black men and Native American men the vote until 1870. Both the USA and the UK compete for the claim of first democracy status but I mean, its a funny kind of democracy that is also slave owning society.
Antony Mann, London
- In the UK we no longer think of ourselves as subjects of the Crown but citizens. In the British passport it clearly states that we are British Citizens not subjects of the Crown. This has been the case for many decades and anyway was only ever nominal, unless you go right back to Early Modern times. We are citizens with rights enshrined in law that goes back to the Middle Ages, e.g. the Act of Habeas Corpus. To say that UK citizens are the property of the Crown is ludicrous and naive. It is not true that people have had to pay to vote, at least not in the Modern Era. However, there were property qualifications that excluded a large section of society from the franchise. These property qualifications were abolished in the Mid-Nineteenth century. Property qualifications were also abolished in the US at a similar time but Native Americans did not get the vote until as late as 1924. In response to Martins peculiar view of British land ownership and property rights, in fact most land is held in freehold by individuals or corporations, as in the U.S. Crown Land is in actuality held and administered by the Government. It is Crown Land in name only. The Monarch herself owns some private land.
Antony Mann, London, UK
- Sorry, Joe.... although the US was established as a Republic, where the States Independence had precedence over any Federal laws, the Republic has been turned into a Top-Down democracy where even our inalienable rights no longer take precedence.
The problem became even more compounded and utterly ironic when "Republicans" like Ronald Reagan started forcing laws like 21-year-old drinking age on the States by withholding Federal Interstate Highway funds about 25 years ago. Now they do it any time they don't like a State Law and can't get it labeled "Unconstitutional" by the Supreme Court.
The US is no longer a Republic... not by a long shot!
J.R., Milwaukee, US
- I just heard President Obama address the Indian Parliament. He said "Greetings to the World's largest democracy from the World's oldest democracy." I guess that settles it. Unless, of course, you think Mr. Obama is full of excrement.
Colleen, Everywhere USA
- There never has been - and probably never will be - any true 'democracy' in the strictest sense of the word.
That said, the word 'democracy' is usually only ever used to represent a constitutional republic (as opposed to a monarchy or some other form of governance).
So, the question is actually what is the oldest nation to have always had a constitution and democratically-elected officials.
Stephen, Chapel Hill USA
- Vaishali or Vesali (Pali) or Vaishali republic,the capital city of the Licchavi in eastern Indian province of bihar has the rare distinction of being the seat of first democratic government of the world as early as in the 6th century bc B.C its adjecent city patliputra,present day patna was the world's largest city, with a population of 150,000-300,000.
visit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaishali_%28ancient_city%29
gaurav, bodh gaya india
- Oh Dave, you say it's "hilarious" how "pissy" Brits get when it is suggested that the US did at all well in their revolution, and then you go on to puff and preen about what a big achievement it really was, and can't everyone acknowledge how well you all did against such a big mean super power. I can only imagine how much in awe of Afghanistan you must be, as they've pretty much fought off TWO superpowers (USSR & USA), and managed both within the past half century rather than more than two and a half centuries ago... And, indeed, that they managed it without having many of the decisive battles lead by a foreign general, with half foreign troops, and their enemy cut off from resupply by a foreign naval blockade, and distracted by other wars elsewhere in the world. Now that is a REAL achievement. But the USA did pretty well too, so good on you. I'll put a lovely ribbon in the mail for you.
Oh, and thanks for saving everyone in world war two. I'm not sure why Americans always want thanking for this, but it was very nice of you to only sit and watch fascism spread over the world for three years before jumping in. I have every confidence that without your involvement Hitler would have won, and then would have stopped, and in no way tried to attack the USA form a position of strength. He was a very good little boy about that sort of thing. So cheers for being a pal there.
Alex, Canada
- Well what about the 5000 year old government of Ancient Egypt???
Maxemilion, UK
- I think Dave Piccolo from CT is paranoid. We Brits do not exactly spend much of our time thinking about the American Revolution and there cant be many of us who are still sore about losing a war that took place over two hundred years ago. For most British people the American Revolution wouldnt even be on their radar but, obviously Dave in his vivid imagination envisions a British nation still seething at the loss of its American Colonies. Doubtless, to Americans the revolution is still important but to us British its a side issue to the main story of European history. Im a history graduate and on our course we did not even touch on American history.
Tony Mann, London, UK
- Griffin, as an English ex-patriot living for the past twelve years in the USA, I can assure you that the reality is far uglier than the glossy image. A democracy perhaps, but a very, very poor one. The entire electoral and administrative system is controlled either indirectly or, increasingly, directly by large corporations.
Colin Lewis, Maine, USA
- To get an agreeable answer you should find a common definition for democracy first.
But keep on posting, it's quite entertaining.
Peter, Hamburg, Germany
- The US is the oldest. Well I do not perceive UK as a democratic country because queen still has got the legal right to sign the prime minister and lead the army !! seriously 9 out of 10 human being out there in the world have no idea where the hell is Isle of the man!!??
Shahab , Iran Iran
- The US is not a Democracy!
It is an Aristocratic Oligarchy.
Bryce, Narberth, PA USA
- The US is *not* a democracy at all, it is a "republic" and anyone who buys into the Orwellian hogwash, whether they be a US citizen or not, quickly appear to be ignorant of the US's true governmental structure. I am shocked to see how many take jabs at the US for no apparent reason. The more I see these nasty, misguided, and wholly ignorant anti-US comments, the more I think "you people" are just projecting a vague dislike onto us. Very juvenile.
Ross, Long Island, NY US
- @Bob.....America was founded as a Constitutional REPUBLIC, not a "democracy"! You have done NO research at all it seems !!!
Buck, America
- The Tynwald on the Isle of Man has been in existence since 979 and is still going strong.
George, London UK
- Patriarchate of Aquileia in Friuli (italy) had a parliament since 1231, and lasted since the arrival of Napoleon (1805).
The participants of the session were nobles, clergy and even the representations of the municipalities.
In addition there was an organism called "Contadinanza" (literally Farmance) that represented the farmers of Friuli
Fabio, Udine Friulian
- I saw a lot of letters from American preening and being..well loud mouthed americans about their 'whooping' Britain. All I can say is that the British treated the people in their colonies and in their own country with equality. The British were certainly far more cultured, advanced in treating people from other cultures and race than the Americans. Blacks in USA led a nightmarish life well upto the middle of the 20th Century. As for the Red Indians whose land was looted with impunity, the less said the better for American 'democracy'.
Isa Mani, Chennai, India
- So sorry to have offended William from Niagara Falls, NY, but my postings were in response to the arrogant posting of Bob from Michigan. Its been some months since I posted those messages and I am not as angry as I was. Some of what I wrote was not my considered opinion. Again, apologies old chap (Not that old chap is a phrase I would normally use.)
Tony Mann, London, UK
- I agree with Jill, the first democracy based on Universal Adult Suffrage was New Zealand in 1893. However, New Zealand did not become an independent sovereign state until 1901 at the earliest when it achieved Dominion status. I disagree over the issue of constitutional monarchy, since such a monarchy is ceremonial and does not interfere into the workings of the executive or government. Therefore in all practical senses a constitutional monarchy is as democratic as any republic. There are plenty of republics around the World which are not even vaguely democratic. The first democracy based on Universal Male Suffrage is much more difficult to pin down. With the exception of indigenous people, the U.S. achieved Universal Male Suffrage in 1870. However, to a large extent this was on paper only. Black people were openly discouraged from voting in many Southern states until the 1960s. Its a complex issue, for example the Soviet Union achieved Universal Adult Suffrage in 1918 but no one would want to call the USSR a democracy of any real sort. So maybe democracy is more than just UAS. Perhaps its UAS plus free speech.
Antony, London UK
- I'm still confused.
Edward, Athen Singapore
- I think if you want to answer that you need a definite definition of democracy. You also need to specify if you mean an entire country as a whole or any one province, state, region, town, kingdom, city, etc. of a country. If you mean any one part than Greece in the city of Athens. If you mean an entire country than like I said, "you need a definite definition of democracy." So basically we can almost all CLAIM to be the world's oldest democracy and we can argue about it all we want, but I don't think we'll come to an accurate and definite decision we all agree on. Hope this helps!
Leah, Middleton MA USA
- AMERICANS have you Heard of the "Iroquois Confederacy" ? Look it up, Benjamin Franklin not only visited the Iroquois (Native American Tribe) He formed the american constitution based on how the Natives were Governing themselves.
Sam, Ontario Canada
- I find this discussion fascinating, the way that it slows after Jill's intelligent input. Till her words, I read in disbelief the endless waring for the claim to "world's oldest democracy" whilst noting the lack of feminine input. We have perhaps come a long way but we still have so far to go.
heather mann, france
- There is no exact answer. So I'm seeing on these answers that if females and minorities could not vote that it doesn't count as democracy ? That's an individual opinion. The laws change all the time an loop holes are made. It's a democracy with a chaser of republic added in the system. Current operating systems in power is China USA and UK as far as Economy management.
The passed longest power were more than Likley India, Egypt and sum young dynasty.
There is still many many question we don't know. Like we're do we come from? Monkeys? Read the bible an make a true choice an last as long as you can here on earth.
Chris, Oakley USA
- Simplest way to put the US argument to bed? George Bush 2000.
Oliver, London UK
- First of all I would like to clarify to someone who said a lot of bad things about Muslims being barbarians. Well tell you what can you blame Washington for all the slave troubles that America had and call him a human rights violater of the worst kind by creating a country that supports slavery. Can you blame King John for all those barbaric acts which gave birth to magna Carta or award him for enacting that? Can you blame the Christian clergy for starting the crusadeses?
Just like that you cannot blame Muhammad for the atrocities commuted after his death. His is the system that was perfect that brought peace and prosperity to the deserts of Arabia were savages lived before him. As far as his character goes well pick up a Damn book and read the history first then you can say all you want. I completely agree that a lot of atrocities have been committed in the name of Islam and Muslims both in the distant past and the recent past something of which the true Muslims are highly ashamed but you cannot blame the true Muslims of the early 500s for it.
As for the debate on democracy goes well I would put it on the day hazrat Abu bakr stood in the Centre of Madina after having chosen by the companions of the holy prophet (the electoral college of sort) and then asking the people who had come from all over Arabia upon the death of the holy prophet whether they would agree to him leading them and asking them that whenever they felt that he has misled them that day they should stop following him. This is the story of late 520s and probably the first stone of a democratic system that was lost later.
And please read before you comment harshly on anyone it will answer your all queries.
Imran, Peshawar Pakistan
- Obviously the standards for democracy, what it should mean, should be completely different when talking about really old ones like San Marino, Isle of Man and such. When talking about oldest, still existing democracies the race is between those countries.
A second thing is the modern variant. Determining when all adults in a country can elect a Government free to decide without other interference in which case Finland will probably win and for instance the UK is slowing trying to become one; not because its a kingdom, but because of the House of Lords.
More interesting is the quality of democracy, to what extend does it function? Buying votes, free press, direct or indirect representation, first past the post or coalitions, are not absolute. Scandinavian countries, Australia and New Zealand typically score highest.
People in the USA like to consider unique, the best, first in everything. Relax. Do you know the name of the first country to recognize your country as independent?
The united provinces of the Netherlands. And yes this confederation was rather democratic, no slavery and obviously an important inspiration/ example to american declaration writers in those times.
The Netherlands has become a (parliamentary) kingdom and the quality of the democracy nowadays is amongst the best in the world, like the USA.
Mirko, New York Us
- With regard to the House of Lords, its representatives are not there by birth right but by merit. They are not real lords or aristocrats. They are selected. The House of Lords has no right to introduce legislation, only to modify existing bills. They have no power whatsoever to modify finance bills. They act as a safeguard. I see no reason why this should affect our status as a democracy. No common sense person would deny that Britain is a modern democracy. Just as no commons sense person would deny the US is a modern democracy.
Tony, LONDON UK
- Democracy = government by the people. I don't think government by an oligarchy chosen by a minority of the people from a list of (usually very wealthy) prospective oligarchs counts as democracy.
I see 'democracy' as a kind of 'branding', which is applied to various kinds of government in order to make them look more attractive. (It's rather like the word 'natural' on food packaging.)
I'm not aware of any country which is governed by its people. If anyone here knows of one then please give us details.
Paul, Oxford UK
- It would seem that everyone can agree that there is no 'true or absolute democracy' in existence. Thus the question should naturally be modified as what is the country with the oldest existing 'form' of democracy?
Jezza, Sydney, Australia
- The ISO (International Organization for Standardization) now classifies the Isle of Man as a country! So perhaps you cannot so easily dismiss the Isle of Man by saying it's 'not a country'. Additionally, the Isle of Man is not, and has never been, part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and (Northern) Ireland.
Ian, Sydney Australia
- How come people keep on forgetting about Finland all the time? True universal suffrage - where women were also eligible for election, not just voting - was implemented already in 1906, with world's first female parliamentarians taking their seats the year after. Obviously Finland would go on for another decade before becoming truly independent, but nevertheless ALL citizens of this Nordic republic have enjoyed universal suffrage for over a century now. THAT should determine the true meaning of DEMOCRACY and not just whether there has been some kind of a parliament for ages or not.
Eric, Stockholm Sweden
- The first polity to introduce Universal Suffrage was New Zealand in 1893, not Finland.
Tony, Lodon UK
- 1a. Government by the people, especially: rule of the majority
1b. A government in which the supreme power is in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free.
Nowhere does it mention universal suffrage, just the rule of the majority - the people rule, not a dictator. The USA is the oldest democracy in the world.
Kyle, Buffalo, NY, US
- The US cannot really be comsidered a true democracy when some US states do not allow US citizens to stand for public office if they do not believe in fairy tales - sorry, I mean God.
Everybody in a democracy whether they are non believers or believers in religious fairy tales should stand in any public office, just like we do in Britain. The current Labour party leader is modern as he is an athiest.
Graham, Ludlow, UK
- President Obama, representing the USA, has done it again!
In his speech addressing the problems in Syria (with respect to chemical weapons and the calling for intervention, 11 September 2013) Obama stated: "America is the worlds oldest democracy" (I forget the precise words used now, but words to that effect).
Wrong! For all the reasons mentioned already in this thread, there are a myriad of other nations with longer historic claims, one way or another, to this title.
How can Obama (and his advisers/speech writing team), think that this was a good statement to make? He was talking to a global audience with incorrect historic and geographic facts.
That one phrase probably instantly put 95% of his listeners off, or at least deflected their attention from his cause.
If you cannot even get geo-historic-political facts right, when you are talking about current geopolitical issues then people will turn off. That aside it was a phrase irrelevant to the "humanitarian cause" anyway.
As soon as Obama said those words I started researching 'history facts' and came across this thread as a result. In fact I did not listen to the rest of his speech as I was researching this. Perhaps that shows that history is more important than some people realise.
Not only was Obama's asserted fact wrong, but how can he be stupid enough to have preached that statement to a global audience.
Please Mr Obama / White House, drop this incorrect historic claim in an attempt to pat yourself on the back. The eyes of the world were upon you. That attitude is only turning the global audience away.
With Obama's intellect and culturally mixed background, I am even more surprised to hear him say this.
I am surprised factually, politically and diplomatically that you even said that. Wrong, wrong, wrong.
This Guardian thread has dominated over world current affairs (for me)!
Mike, Lymington, UK
- I feel sorry for the UK. Most of the people in the UK are biased, and claim that the UK made everything. I beg to differ, because we must not forget the Germanic Empire and Roman Empire, which was far greater than the British empire in terms of influence, lol. Where do you limeys think English came from, lol. English came from Germanic invaders, lol.
As for the Revolutinary War in the USA. Well, the UK didn't beat the USA by its lonesome, lol. The UK had massive troop shortages, so the UK had to bring in Hesians, aka Germans to help them fight. Half of the UK fighting force in the USA was Hesian, aka German. However, the UK will distort this bona fide fact and take all of the credit, lol. Can anyone blame the Americans, when they asked France for help. You Brits came in with a foreign fighting force and even had the Native Americans on your side as well. Haha, the UK is good at telling fibs.
As for the oldest Democracy in the World, any idiot would know it's the Republic of San Marino, hahaha. Its not the Isle of man, lol. Also, France is older than England and it has a far greater past from the roman tribes. Rome is the greatest Empire that ever existed, not the UK.
JAFO, Seattle, Wa USA
- The Republic of San Marino is the oldest. Yep, it's a country inside of Italy. It's hard to miss, but it's the oldest Democracy in the World.
Machine, Munich Germany
- You silly people. The USA is the oldest Democracy in the modern World. The UK is still a Constitutional monarchy. Which means that a King or Queen is still the head of state. The UK isn't its own Gov for the people, because of the monarchy. In the USA, the people are the US.Gov. In the UK, the Queen or King represents the people of the UK. A US President is a normal person that came from the people elected by the people, and the same is true for Congress and the Senate.
In the UK, a King or Queen has to be born out of the stock that has been brewing for 100s of years. So, how could the UK be a Democracy? When the head of state has to be born into power. The people don't get to choose who their head of state will be in the UK. They have to settle for the same brew centuy after century. Whereas in the USA, the people spawn its leaders and you're always getting a new generation of leaders, not the same old soup from the pot. The same holds true for Greece and Italy. They had kings or Leaders born into power as well.
I don't need an educated British rebuttal, because the Queen or King of the UK still has powers: Declare war, dissolve parliament, appoint PM, fire PM, and do the same stuff in her commonwealth realm. Hence, she's dissolved Canadian parliament 3 times in the last 8 years, lol.
There is a difference between a Queen and King ran country, vs a country that lets the people vote on its leader. Grab a book people.
Adam, NYC USA
- The president said the U.S. is the oldest democracy in the world. Hes not the first to say it. President George W. Bush said it before him. Filmmaker Michael Moore said it. Hillary Clinton said it.
Whats the truth?
Other nations developed working democracies long before the U.S., so taken charitably the statement probably is supposed to mean that the U.S. has the longest run as a democracy up through the present.
Using that understanding, the U.S. might qualify as the oldest democracy if one narrows the term sufficiently.
A confederacy of Indian tribes and Iceland both lay claim to reasonable challenges, though both the Iroquois and Icelandic claims are open to question on the basis of continuity.
Great Britain and tiny San Marino also make claims as the oldest democracy.
The spotty history and weak current state of the Six Nations along with Icelands relatively recent constitution could serve to weaken their claims . Some might disqualify Great Britain because of its monarchy and extensive parliamentary reform. Some might disqualify San Marino on the basis of its small size.
With careful parsing one might sustain the claim that the U.S. is the oldest modern democracy.
We dont see much point in pressing the claim. Nor do we see much point in disputing it. The U.S. is the most obvious sustained model of self-governance in the world. Lets just leave it at that.
Dennis , Kent UK
- Just to clarify, the UK is a Constitutional Monarchy, not an Absolute Monarchy. That is to say, a democracy and not a tyranny. The monarch has no power of arrest or power to legislate. The role of the monarch is ceremonial. True executive power lies in the hands of the Prime Minister, who like the American president, comes from the people. The first democracy on the basis of Universal Adult Suffrage is New Zealand. The first democracy on the basis of Universal Male Suffrage is probably the US. However, America has two problems, because prior to the Civil War, the US was a slave owning society and slave owning is just about as undemocratic as it gets. Second, the conquest of the West, so called manifest destiny, i.e. an extension of US territory into the land of the indigenous people at gunpoint, by bad guys like General Custer. Again, hardly what may be described as democratic.
Tony, LONDON UK
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