“Brogramming” culture is real, and is really bad for men, women, and business in general. Alyssa Royse explains why, blow by blow.
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Before we explore the sticky territory of sexism in the tech industry, and what has come to be called “brogramming,” I want to explicitly get your consent. This is going to be a very adult conversation and, as such, I want your consent. All you have to do to consent is stay put. And that is, in many ways, a perfect way to look at this issue as a whole, because most people do not, simply by virtue of going to work, give you permission to sexualize them, or their work place. And in an environment that is increasingly sexist, it gets very hard for someone who feels repressed, or like an offended minority, to stand up against it.
It also important for all of us to be willing to recognize that this might be a real problem. And that many of the people perpetrating it are not, in fact, sexist assholes. Indeed, they may genuinely not realize they’re doing it, that there’s anything wrong with it, or that they have a choice. So there is no personal blame here for any individual. Rather, we need to look at the culture as a whole and ask ourselves if this is good for us as an industry, as individuals, and as the businesses that we are trying to build.
Lastly, no one, least of all me, is trying to take away your right to be sexy or flirty, to hook up or anything else. Hell, my “real” job is to try to help people have better and more creative sex, more often, so I’d rather look at this as a way to improve the tech community, your business, and your opportunity to get laid. Because some part of me thinks that all of the crazy posturing that we call “brogramming” is actually just what many people think they have to do to get ahead, and get the girl.
I’m here to tell you that the best way to achieve both of those goals is to stop being sexist, treat both women and your customers with respect, and approach everything as a way to collaborate in forming a lasting relationship. But it starts with you.
Yes, unlike most talks I give and articles I write, this is a very heteronormative talk. It’s about straight guys and the impact they have on women, because this talk is largely about how brogramming is a major reason that more women don’t get into and stay in tech. Any gender bias here is entirely intentional….
WHAT IS BROGRAMMING?
It’s hard to pinpoint when the geeks who made Silicon Valley the center of the modern world started adapting – and then codifying – the “work hard, play hard” agro machismo once reserved for jocks and investment bankers. Retrospectively, it seems like the organic puss left after the DotCom Bubble burst and everyone still believed that they could be zillionaires overnight and buy their way to both financial and emotional security. I am reminded of the great opening scene in The Social Network, where the Mark Zukerberg character (and remember, this is a work of fiction, so it is just a character) is being dumped by his girlfriend and she says something like, “you’re going to think that people don’t like you because you’re a geek, but that’s not it, it’s because you’re an asshole.”
Indeed, the rest of that movie seems the perfect depiction of the “brogramming” attitude that swept the tech industry – or, as Rob Spectre of Twilio called it in a now infamous speech, “The Brodom.”
This behavior, which looks like a frat party with expense accounts, has taken on a culture of its own, complete with vocabulary and predictable behavior patterns. Without trying to paint all fraternities with a broad brush, the Brodom behavior looks like what most people would call a “frat party.” There is focus on partying, being tougher than anyone else, “kicking ass,” and an attitude about women that looks pretty misogynistic. I hesitate to say that is absolutely is misogynistic, because that implies a level of intentional disregard for women that I don’t think is fair to ascribe to all brogrammers. So I’d like to focus on the trend, not the individual players. I assume that most brogrammers are decent guys, caught up in a culture that is worse than any of its parts. And that they do it simply because it’s what their culture does, and they believe that is how to get ahead; and yes, how to get women.
Let’s neither ignore nor demonize that last point. The quest to get laid crosses all industries, and is indeed a driving force for many of us – perhaps most especially the younger guys who seem to embody brogramming culture. They think that being the baddest bad ass will get them some ass.
I think they’re wrong. I think brogramming, besides being sexist and harmful to the workplace and the tech industry, is also bad for business and a bad way to attract women. The good news is that not being a sexist asshole is both good for business, and good for attracting women.
WHERE IS BROGRAMMING?
Brogramming is so ubiquitous that it’s almost pointless to nail it on a few people, but a recent Mother Jones article has brought several incidents to the forefront.
Go Daddy has to be the Godfather of brogramming misogyny, as they have, for years, been using women’s boobs, and the promise of soft-core porn online ads, to drive traffic. GeekList recently followed in those footsteps with the “girl in undies” ads on the last slide. As stupid and sexist as it was, the Twitter storm that followed showed exactly the nature of the brogramming attitude that exists today.
But the illustrations on this particular slide are all here for a reason. There’s the now infamous Boston API Jam by Sqoot, which lost all its sponsors after backlash from offering women serving beer as a conference perk. And the Silicon Valley VC pitch by a young startup that used photos of women in bikinis to highlight how awesome it was that their product could help you find the “good” places to be. Because, you know, “sexy” women are what makes a conference worth attending, or a place worth visiting. It should be obvious why this is offensive to women, but let me spell it out for you. We are not products. We do not exist solely to make things better for you. And worse, the very narrowly defined depiction of what “sexy” is leaves the majority of women out. It’s fine if you are not attracted to everyone – we are all entitled to our taste – but it is not fine to walk around talking about it all the time. Your sexual interests are not the point of a domain name registry, a conference or the success of your company.
But, just in case you still don’t see why this is offensive, look at the Boston API Jam add again, and imagine if it said, “Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (black) event staff get that for you.” Look at the location-scouting app pitch and ask yourself how you’d feel if that photo showed black people and said, “you won’t find these here” rather than chicks in bikinis and said “you’ll find these here.”
What is obviously racism in the above examples is just as obviously sexism in the real life samples.
The message it sends to women in tech is that women are valued for their sex appeal, and ability to satisfy men’s sexual imaginations. That is the wrong message if you want to attract women in tech. And, frankly, if you want to attract women to you.
Being a douche is not the way. Douching is bad for a woman’s vagina, and the metaphorical douches who call themselves brogrammers are bad for women in the world.
WHY DOES BROGRAMMING HAPPEN?
Going out on a limb, this is an easy one. They think they have to. Guy Kawasaki often quips that you should never do anything in business without checking with a woman first. Although I tend not to buy into gender stereotypes (I don’t think your genitals dictate your ability to treat people with respect) he posits that men possess a “killer instinct” that they can’t always turn off. They want to kill the competition, kill the pitch, kill the….. And to do so, they need to be badder, louder, bigger, tougher and faster than the competition.
Fine. I can buy that. When guys get together in guy groups, their personalities seem to change a bit. I’ve seen it, I don’t really think much of it. After all, a group of women is just as scary, and frankly, just as crass. We just tend not to let it seep into the workplace as much.
So there’s Kawasaki’s point. But I also think that there is a larger cultural issue that isn’t getting talked about enough. As much as we bitch about (and rightly so) the unreal depictions of women’s bodies and women’s “roles” in the media, I don’t think we pay enough attention to the same thing with men and boys. Even in tech, the ones we celebrate are the ones who made tons of money, the ones with the fancy cars, the ones with….. Outside of tech, images of men’s bodies are no less unreal than those of women. And then we add to that this entrenched cultural expectation that men are tough, strong, fearless, provide for their families, and do it all without ever expressing emotions that would make them seem like a “pussy.”
From the time that boys are little, we tell them to “man up and get ‘er done.” To a large degree, I think these misguided, and damned douchy, brogrammers are doing what we taught them to do. Compete until you are successful and get a hot girl.
That’s no excuse. It’s wrong, it doesn’t work and it’s just rude as hell, but it’s perspective we need to own. The myth of Prince Charming saving the damsel in distress is as bad for men as it is for women.
Most women would way rather have a kind, competent and secure guy who doesn’t play games. But we don’t model that, anywhere. Rich or strong, or both, that’s about it. How do you expect a guy in his mid 20’s who’s working 60 hours a week to undo all that programming and still keep his job and get laid?
SO WHAT HAPPENS?
That’s easy, and sad.
You get a bunch of guys who think they need to be James Bond, and they end up being the Situation. And I’m sorry, but any of you hyped out agro brogrammers who think that you look cool…… Not so much. And please, stop with the cologne. (Okay, that was an off-topic personal plea, but at least lighten up, a lot.)
On a business level, it’s bad for business, and we’ll get to that. But on a personal level, I promise, you’re not going to get the girl that way. At least not the one you want.
SO WHY DOES IT MATTER?
There has been a marked decline of women in tech in the past decade. While I’m not one who says everything has to be even in all regards, I have a hard time believing that ignoring – much less alienating and eliminating – half the population is good for any business. For several reasons:
1. When trying to innovate or problem solve, entrenched thinking and groupthink are the least likely paths to optimal results. A diversity of perspectives and ways of thinking is almost inherently valuable.
2. Women are reported to control nearly 2/3 of the consumer wealth in this country. From how we buy airline tickets to groceries to online banking, all consumer goods and even cars and real estate. Not having women on a team is foolish. (No woman, for instance, would have put bikini jumping women in that pitch, which did anger at least one potential investor. Or Suggest women as beer-serving wenches at a conference, which caused them to lose all their sponsors.)
3. Building a better team means having the best talent, so, to quote my friend Dan Shapiro, who has built more successful businesses than anyone I know, “We simply cannot afford to alienate large chunks of the workforce, it is a widely understood truth that the single biggest challenge to a successful startup is attracting the right people. To literally handicap yourself by 50 percent is insanity.”
In the discussion of women in tech, people often wonder if it matters if women write code and what to do about team chemistry that is perfect without women.
In my mind, this is not black and white. If women aren’t writing code because they don’t want to, that’s fine. But if they are denied the opportunity because of systematic sexism in both education and employment, that’s a much larger issue.
Returning back to the “is this sexist” question again, I would ask, “is it racist?” If someone said “black people just aren’t as good at writing code,” or “black people just aren’t a good fit on my team,” would that be racist? If so, then “women just aren’t as good at writing code” and “women just aren’t a good fit on my team” is sexist.
Continuing that, if they aren’t a good fit, because the men on your team are insisting on sexualizing everything in a personal way, then it is the men who are a problem.
That sucks to hear, but let’s back out of it a step or two. I live and breathe sex. I do not think it is possible to remove sexuality from the workplace. Nor do I want to. Generally speaking, when our creative and intellectual juices start flowing, so do our sexual juices. And that’s okay. Actually, I think it’s all kinds of juicy goodness, because people who are fully “turned on” tend to be really creative and productive.
But taking that energy and making it overtly, personally and tactically sexual is something different altogether. Unless someone has given you their consent to enter into an overtly sexually charged environment, that’s when you cross the line.
Gawking over pictures of women in bikinis is overtly sexual charged. It is not okay in the workplace. Unless you work with me, in which case I am very clear up front that not only do you have to be comfortable watching porn and talking about kinky sex, you have to have a life in which it is okay for you to do so, because stress at home will come to work with you, and it will lessen your productivity.
The key there is consent. Plain and simple. And the fact that I work in the sex industry. Not the tech industry. I sell sexuality, not software as a service.
Which is part of why I believe that even men don’t want to be surrounded by just men all day. Business set aside, if you want to get ahead with the ladies (something I encourage, because my mission is to help ladies have better sex, and for at least half of them, that means access to men who are not total asshats) then learning to be around, work with, listen to and understand women is your best path to success. I promise you, most women don’t want James Bond any more than they want The Situation. The ones who want men, want men who respect them, listen to them, value their opinions, look out for their best interest and are fun to be with. Practice that at work, and you’ll be better at it after work. No woman wants to be with a man who treats women like shit, that would be admitting that they, themselves, were shit.
IT’S NOT FUNNY
We’ve all heard it time and time again, the humorless feminist. Can we stop that now, please? Along with the “women don’t like to fuck” thing, that’s bullshit. I spend all day listening to women talk about how bored they are with their sex life, and they often say that it’s because there are no men that are worth fucking. Dudes! Get worth it!
And for what it’s worth, I am always telling my girlfriends that geeks are where it’s at (and I mean it.) “Those guys won’t give up until they find an algorithm that makes your motherboard hum!” I’ve said it a hundred times, and I’m not stopping any time soon.
But the jokey brogrammer attitude about women simply isn’t funny. The rules of humor are simple, you can’t make a joke at someone’s expense unless they have status to spare. Making jokes about historically repressed populations isn’t funny, especially if you are in the part of the population of that did the repressing. Maybe in the future, but we aren’t there yet. Sucks if you are a privileged white guy,’cuz you can pretty much only make fun of privileged white guys, but at least you have Charlie Sheen. But humor points up – we roast celebrities, not waiters. There’s a reason.
We are already fighting for credibility, equal pay, trying to prove that we deserve to be on an equal playing field. (Which, I might point out, we shouldn’t have to do.) But making us the butt of jokes – or our body parts – just knocks us down more.
So stop it. It’s counterproductive at work, and a non-starter if you’re trying to attract women.
IT’S BAD FOR WOMEN
Look, this is simple. Everywhere we turn, we are bombarded with media messages that tell us we’re too old, too fat, too tired, too wrinkly, and too out of style. We don’t need to get this shit at work too.
How would you feel if a successful, chick-run, tech company slung their slogan on a schlong of unreasonable proportion that you could never live up to? Good? Productive? Like you totally wanted to screw the chick who expects your penis to be on par with THAT? No, of course not.
On the most basic level, it is hard to feel safe, appreciated, welcome and respected when we are, at best, left out of the camaraderie, and at worst, kept out and belittled by a sexist misogyny that blames us for not loving to be treated like second class citizens, sexual objects and the butt of jokes.
Especially when we are, at least in theory, there to work. And then people try to tell us it isn’t happening. Remember separate but equal? When “blacks” and “whites” had separate drinking fountains? That was racism, right? What’s happening in brogramming culture is sexism in exactly the same way. Chicks can be project managers, but not coders? We don’t get to be part of your little group because we aren’t “down” with being talked down to and about all day long.
I don’t think you should hire people of any sex, gender, orientation , race or religion to make a quota. But if something is systematically – even subversively – blocking an entire portion of the population, then it’s an “ism.” “Isms” are usually a problem.
WHAT DO YOU WANT?
Whether you want to build a better business, or be the guy who actually gets the girl, you simply have to start ignoring all the hype and noise around you, and focus. Focus entirely on the market (which, in this case, can be a girl or the people who you hope will buy your product.)
You have competition. All the chest-thumping dudery in the world isn’t going to help you “kill” the competition, as Kawaski would put it. So calm the fuck down and focus. Stop worrying about who’s having bigger parties, getting more press, has more Twitter followers or Klout, focus on what your market needs. Don’t guess, ask them. Don’t design things they don’t need just because they’d be cool and you can. Don’t spend money you don’t have on things you don’t really need. Launch a product that serves your customer’s need better than anything else can. That’s what will make you successful in business. Not g-strings with your name on them.
And for goddsake, get a woman’s perspective, because I promise you, you will want a woman to buy what you’re selling, so ask one. Ask a woman how she shares photos, wants to read magazines, wants to look for real estate, wants…..
And if you meet a woman who you actually want to hook up with, do the same thing. You’ll be good at it now, because you’ve been practicing. Ask her questions. Listen to her answers. Share something true about yourself (not bullshit lines.) Figure out if you can meet each other’s needs, honestly. If you want no-strings sex, tell her that. Because if that’s what you want, and you tell her something different, you’re gonna unleash a whole lotta crazy. And vice versa. You have no idea how sexy direct communication is. It’s super hot. It’s an app that actually works rather than one of those gajillion apps that somebody wrote because they were so cool, bro, without thinking about if they really do anything that anyone wants.
KEEP WHAT YOU WANT
And this is the most important thing in both businesses and relationships – Acquisition is harder and more expensive that retention. Whether it’s an employee, a customer or a girlfriend, it takes a lot of resources to find the right match. The best way to not have to go through that as often is to get it right. That, invariably, means communication, respect, and trust. There is nothing in brogramming culture that fosters any of those things. Not in the board room and not in the bed room.
After the talk that didn’t really happen, I was approached by both a gay programmer and an African-American programmer, and both of them said, essentially, “this shit hurts us too.” Brogrammers are the “mean girls” of the tech world. And it sucks for everyone who isn’t one of them.
BE THE CHANGE
Look, I get it. I’m not trying to be a buzzkill, but the people who say there isn’t a sexism problem in tech are delusional. There is. It’s real, and it really is a problem. You simply cannot alienate and eliminate half the population and not take some responsibility for it.
Paraphrasing The Social Network, it’s not because it’s geeky, it’s because the brodom inherently does not involve women. There is no way you can use our tits to sell your products and serve your drinks and then say that as an industry you value us. There is no way your “leaders” can give speeches like the one Rob Specter and Matt Van Horn gave, to much applause, and tell us you value women.
You can’t even blame it on the other guys, unless YOU are one of the ones who stands up and calls bullshit. As I often tell my 15 year-old daughter, as bad as the bully is, it’s the people who don’t stand up to the bully who make the bullying problem as big as it is.
And that’s the good news. When you stand up and opt out of brogrammer culture, you become one of the good ones. You become a force that puts an end to sexism, you become a voice that focuses on what really matters, you become something positive.
The tech world has gotten a lot of bad press lately. Yes, I think the media focuses on the negative, but I also think that’s why it grows. People think that’s the way to get attention, and they want attention. We all do, it’s normal. After all, we can all name Matt Van Horn now, who cares if it’s because he’s an example of Brogrammer douchebaggery? They’re “famous.” Or at least infamous.
We should all care. Because unless we put a stop to it, the tech industry will be to sexism what the South is to racism. An embarrassing hanger-on to the progress that the rest of the world is making. Tech is going backwards – and the numbers show it. We are losing women in tech, while women in leadership in just about every other industry are increasing.
But will being “that guy,” the one good one, get you the girl? Actually, it will. By being respectful, trustworthy and focused on quality, you’ll get the girl. I promise. As I’ve often said, I’m not interesting in dating, much less fucking, some guy who will do it with just anyone. Because I’m not, “just anyone,” and I want partners who know that. Being a douche will not get you the girl.
Being a brogrammer is bad for your sex life, and it is really bad for business.
BE A GREAT LOVER
If none of that worked for you, let me leave you with the immortal words of David Foster Wallace. I tell this to anyone who will listen when talking about sex, because it’s the best advice out there. But it works in business too, just minus the sex. “A good lover makes you feel good. A great lover makes you feel like you are a great lover.”
Ironically, it comes from Brief Interviews With Hideous Men, and in my personal opinion Brogrammers are hideous men.
But, taking this out of the bedroom and into the boardroom, your job is not to be the most impressive individual out there. It’s to build a great product, in a great company, with a great team. And the best way to do that is to make sure that the people around you feel great being around you. That’s what will make you better than anyone else. Be the guy that helps people be the best they can be. That will get you ahead. And, well, head.
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This post is republished on Medium.
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Photo credit: Shutterstock
Great article, btw. Which is strange, because i’ve worked and been friends with some of those tech whiz kids, and this is what i noticed. When i am friends with those guys and they trust me, they can open up and admit how hard it is to be a leader, and how much he wants to relax with a girl…but when i deal with the same guy without being friends first, there is a lot of showing off and treating women as inferior…
But you got it spot on in your article.
I think this article is pretty damn good. it’s thorough, at least, and it tries valiantly to walk an impossibly greasy tightrope. Objectification is such an interestingly divisive topic. My first impression was similar with some of the guys above: equating a practically exposed penis to practically exposed breasts is not quite right. (In some ways it’s comparable, in other ways not so much). Plus, I have to admit a bit of homophobic discomfort in having that image appear every time the page refreshes. Also, the GoDaddy.com Super Bowl commercials have been getting increasingly less sexist; the latest one was… Read more »
I’m sorry but I don’t understand your last response. I was replying to your comment where you said: Yet “when you look at the comment section. It’s men wanting more sex and women wanting less.” i was trying to say that i don’t hear where women want less sex. I thought you were saying that you are in a relationship where your partner wants less sex. The crux of my commentary is that when you say: “If you say help us by denying your own sexuality, I don’t believe that would be helpful. If you say help us figure out… Read more »
John, I’m really sorry that you’re in a sexless relationship. But I don’t see that many of the men commenting are in that same situation. And I can see where that is a hurtful situation for you and would need addressing. But that is not the discussion here. This is about alienating women from sections of the world, such as tech. I’m hearing a lot of women who want sex and crave sex but their spouse’s are so focused on advertisement and visual aids that they withhold and turn away and women are tired and angry for feeling like a… Read more »
@ kim “’m really sorry that you’re in a sexless relationship” I suppose that you think that’s the only reason a man would be in one. You really should think more highly of yourself or since I’ve never seen you, maybe you think too highly of yourself. If you try really hard, I’m sure you might come up with another reason why a man might go out with you. You really need to virgin shame a lot harder. It doesn’t really work on a liberated man. Most guys on the site have already worked through that and don’t measure their… Read more »
One more thing about the pictures. I remember reading a advice column article not to get into specifics, but a boy was punished with a bare bottom whipping and made to stand in the corner. The columnist described him as half or partly naked. Wouldn’t he be completely naked if he only had one sexualized area or half if we consider the exposed female breast as nudity, but not an exposed leg or arm? If that is the case and being completely nude is considered more sexualized than being partially nude, there still wouldn’t be an equivalence unless there was… Read more »
@ Erin @ Kim I understand what you’re saying and empathize. I’ve also heard the other side where men gave complained that their sexuality is being vilified. If you say help us by denying your own sexuality, I don’t believe that would be helpful. If you say help us figure out a way that we can coexist without inadvertently hurting each other, I think that’s a winner. I think it comes down to a difference in libidos much like what we’ve discussed before in marriage. Currently, society takes the position that in marriage the person with the lowest libido wins.… Read more »
John You’re basing your views on stereotypes. The stereotypes that men’s libidos are higher and that men are more visually stimulated have been challenged. A study done at Washington U showed that women were equally visually stimulated by sexual imagery. The sexual arousal response time hardly differed between the genders. The problem with these stereotypes is their so outdated and no one has taken the time to update them. Men’s sexually has been nurtured and catered to for several decades and women are just now being encouraged to be sexual and open. I know lots of women who say that… Read more »
@ kim I’ve seen some studies that suggest that women’s sex drives are equal to or greater than men’s. One study showed that women immediately focused on the genitals of a nude male while men split their time looking at the body and face of a nude female. There was an article here where the husband had no sex drive. Yet when you look at the comment section. It’s men wanting more sex and women wanting less. I read an article about the “booming” growth of male strip clubs in England. These clubs were frequented by women who were overwhelmingly… Read more »
Kim, you know, I wish it were true that women’s libidos were truly comparable to men’s. If it were, when I was younger, I could’ve just sat back on a bar stool and waited for some horny woman to make her move–I did, actually: it didn’t work. I would also like to think that my own low sex drive is a product of being a more evolved man who doesn’t fall prey to the media saturation of sexual female imagery; but I think it’s just that I have a lower sex drive than your average man. I’ve heard this argument… Read more »
A possible answer may be to include different body types rather than the same narrow model we have to day. So we can include more variety into the sexual or erotic type of ads thus forming a more friendly environment for diversity? I dont know just brainstorming.
@ Mr Supertypo
Equality achieved through equal oppression of the masses. I remember a woman who supported having more male nudity in film not because she wanted to see nude men, but so men will know how women felt. Doesn’t really seem to have bothered most guys except that a somewhat larger segment of the male population now has body image issues. It makes things kind of interesting to see how they’d use that philosophy to bridge the life expectancy gap.
Yah that argument has always bothered me. Its only really the same if it appeals the same.
If men developed body issues from the increased male nudity in movies, you don’t see that as a bad thing? Eating disorders among women is rampant because of nudity and pressures for women to look a certain way. Karen Carpenter is an extreme example along with so many other female celebrities who developed eating disorders or anorexia due to pressures placed on them. You mean to tell me that you don’t care that some men developed body issues as a result of nudity? If that number increases to the same number of women impacted by images, then will you consider… Read more »
@ Kim “f men developed body issues from the increased male nudity in movies, you don’t see that as a bad thing?” Sure I do. I don’t believe I’ve said anything different. The point is that giving men a taste of what women experienced didn’t result in nudity free movies or a reduction in the pressures women felt to have conventionally attractive bodies. It resulted in more men having the same body image issues as women. The point is that equality if the genders is a good goal, but equality achieved through harming a gender rather than alleviating the issue… Read more »
Then stop doing it to women and then their body issues can begin going away. You’re worried about harming men’s images for the sake of proving a point that women’s images are hurting, but we’re losing lives here and no one is listening when articles like this are trying to help make the point that something needs to change for women. Yes, help us. I would love to go get groceries and not be surrounded by magazines with women on them. I would hate for men to feel it, but no one is listening or doing anything about our concern.… Read more »
From the perspective of a guy in tech, I see problems with this article. Tech is thought of as a single entity. I’ve been in tech for over 25 years. The majority of my managers / supervisors have been women. All 4 senior level managers at my current job (directors / VPs defined as people who have the ability to spend money and/ / or hire and fire people) are women. Most of the people who do the technical / hard core IT work are men. It’s hard to sell a service to a business by selling sex with women… Read more »
Hi John – I would bet that your experience of having mostly female managers and supervisors is not common. Or do you believe that it is? I looked up the Adria Richards story. How do you think it impacts the work environment when sexualized comments and jokes are made regularly? Especially in a world where women still feel the pressure to prove their worth? I remember a poster on here talking about an situations where he was at a conference and there was a female speaker. Another man near him made a nasty comment about the woman’s looks and this… Read more »
@ Erin “Hi John – I would bet that your experience of having mostly female managers and supervisors is not common. Or do you believe that it is?” I’ve spoken with other guys in the industry and it seems pretty mixed. Not the management teams, the situation. Guys either have mostly female managers or all or mostly male. One thing you might find interesting and it’s probably because of the situations dynamic, but I’ve spoken to female managers who have complained that their male subordinates have harassed them. I think that might be because the women in the industry have… Read more »
John – Thanks for going into more detail about your work experience. I don’t understand what you mean by “legitimate power” vs “expert power”. Could you explain it to me? Based on my work experienced, management positions where dominated by men, as where IT departments. I suspect that part of the problem can by sensitivity from women. I don’t like the word “hyper” applied here because who is to say what any one individual is *too* sensitive about. That also stands for “irrational” since it’s a common word used to stereotype women. I know there are times when women do… Read more »
I actually don’t think her posting that on Twitter was really that bad. She was trying to make a point. Make people accountable for the things they say. She was trying to combat something that is actually a true concern and issue for a lot of women. The problem was how she went about it. From my readings of what happened she heard the comments, did nothing, saw there was a woman speaking, and went straight to posting their image on Twitter. No attempt at confronting them on her own, no alerting the people running the conference. I understand there… Read more »
Was she making a scene or was she using the availble meduims of communication that have become socially acceptable to express oneself and one’s life. This begs the question about what is premissable to post online, on twitter, as we adapt to such forms of communication. I really don’t know myself what is appriopiate to post on there or not. How can any of us. It’s new to all of us. What does “privacy” exactly mean in this day and age as well? I actually agree that my comparison wasn’t great. But It does bug me that games continue to… Read more »
When I saw the Go Daddy pics at the beginning of this article, I KNEW I would have to comment here. First, a disclaimer: I am 69 years old and a grandma, married to a guy I met on the internet 16 years ago. We are conservative and, yes, I realize this is pretty much a progressive site. That is fine – we can still communicate, right? When Go Daddy started their sexy t-shirt ads years ago, I was a happy customer of theirs. They provided an awesome product, great technical support, prices that were reasonable, etc. I just couldn’t… Read more »
@ Steph
I never understood their ads either except the first one with Candace Michelle because they do seem to have a product with good value from a features / cost perspective. The first one was to generate controversy and get recognition. I think though they’re making the same mistake that others make. The techie geek isn’t going to make the decision on the hosting company just because he’s responsible for maintaining the website.
I’m really getting sick and tired of all this galprogramming. It’s demeaning and turns men into sexual objects. Exhibit One: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCP0R3ZF7CQ
David, I can appreciate your concern. But why are you ignoring what this topic is about in regards to broprogramming? In our society, who do you feel bears the brunt of sexualization? What does most sexual material tend to focus on? What does most advertising appear to focus on?
The answer is to create a culture that women enjoy, not get angry at those who have done the same.
Hi Diz – do you believe that just because human beings create a “culture” that it is automatically right, healthy or good?
I think anger is acutally a pretty healthy emotional response when a person believes that are not being represented or treatedly fairly.
@ Erin
“Hi Diz – do you believe that just because human beings create a “culture” that it is automatically right, healthy or good? ”
And yet when guys challenge the fairness of the two pictures at the top of the article, women are quick to defend it by saying the culture looks at them as equal.
The body parts aren’t the same but I think the same feelings of vulnerability and objectification are. Women feel very sensitive about their breasts. The same way alot of men may feel in response to that picture of that man. So no, they are not the same body parts. But the way both genders are feeling in response to those images very much are probably more the same than not. I htink that’s the place women are coming from. I know that’s the place I’m coming from.
Not to nitpick but the first picture is just a penis bulge next to a picture of a sexually provocative women. I don’t think that is really close to the same thing. I would have liked a more apples to apples comparison.
Maybe something more like this? http://www.financialpost.com/Sexy+sell+feminine+products/3536374/story.html
No, I think she got it right. And it’s not just a “penis bulge”, it’s a sexually provocative picture of a man that grabs the viewers’ attention. I don’t see a problem.
Can’t say that I see the difference between the two photos. The penis bulge doesn’t seem substantively different to me than the air-brushed-to-be-even-more-prominent-boob-bulge. It’s all link-bait, using sexualized body parts. But people seem much more concerned about the penis-bulge than the boob-bulge. It has been interesting, however, to see how differently the two are treated. If the penis-bulge is ridiculous, so is the boob-bulge.
Boobs are a lesser sexually characteristic the closest male equivalent would be a nice chest and abs.
The labia majora would be the equivalent to the penis bulge…. and i think you would find a stronger reaction to that.
If the penis-bulge is ridiculous then so is that labia majora.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel_toe
Boobs do not amount to penis imo.
You’re suggestion is too literal. Our society has created a sexual obsession over breasts and breasts in and of themselves have been used to generate a sexual response in the viewer. There is not the same level of vulnerability faced by men when their chests are exploited as when women’s breasts are exploited. Breasts are not exposed in public like a male chest is. Breasts are covered up and women don’t walk around topless, whereas men do walk around topless so there’s no vulnerability there. The only thing covered up on men are their penises. Therefore the penis and breasts… Read more »
to be fair, we should also admit that boobs are not genitalia, so a good comparison is penis with vaginas.
Boobs are also sexualized but they are more “innocent” than a erected penis or a woman with open legs. A man with bare chest may be a good equivalent? I dont know, thats up to women to define…
@ Mr Supertypo “I dont know, thats up to women to define…” I disagree. I think to an extent it’s up to society to define. I say to an extent because society gets to set mores, however, they shouldn’t conflict with universal truths such as equal protection or equality under the law. I think much too often society especially men and especially when it concerns social issues allow women to define things unilaterally and when one gender gets to define the metric, the other gender will always be defined as the problem. I remember making the argument that we need… Read more »
I, along with 4 other wives I know personally, are the breadwinners in the family. Our husbands stay home with the kids. The days of that type of stereotype are completely gone. I know many women who work on remodeling their houses, change the oil in their car and do other things that you sound willing to deny due to stereotypes but it’s true. That stereotype stirs up resentment in me.
@ Kim As there are emotionally supportive men who contribute more to the relationship building aspect of the relationship than their partners as some men pointed out in the conversation this comment referenced. The original conversation that this goes back to looked at behaviors / roles in relationships and attributed them to gender based on what the author perceived to be the majority of cases. My point in that conversation and here is that when we let one gender set the metric or frame the conversation, they will set a metric / frame the conversation in a way that is… Read more »
“I think much too often society especially men and especially when it concerns social issues allow women to define things unilaterally and when one gender gets to define the metric, the other gender will always be defined as the problem.” I don’t see this. A significant majority of lawmakers and policy makers are men, and lawmakers and policymakers are the ones defining things on social issues. I can’t think of any law unilaterally set by women. If you call expressing a concern that women often express with regards to how women are portrayed in society, anecdotal evidence, has women expressing… Read more »
Well said Kim. Well said indeed.
I would also like to know the answer to that question. Unfortunately, I think society and many men, even men with daughters and wives and women they care for, enjoy and like how much sexual advertising is used based on women’s bodies. I really don’t believe most men care because they get sexual arousal from it.
@ Erin
And if men get to define things and men like sexualized women in advertising then why do we see numerous topless men and female breasts only in porn?
@ Kim “We don’t wait around for a survey to be done to ” And where are the shelters for battered men? Why have some men complained that when they contact a rape hotline, they are told that they only service women? We don’t need to wait for a survey to know that men are victims of intimate partner violence. We don’t need to wait for a survey to know men are victims of rape. We already have them, yet where is the action? In fact under PREA inmates were surveyed about sexual victimization behind bars. They found that 50%… Read more »
@ Alyssa Royse
I agree with Anonguy. An equivalent would be a muscular guy in a tank top or muscle shirt. I understand why you think they’re equivalent. It’s because society suggests they are by requiring both be covered while not requiring a male chest be covered. It may be more a question of what should be equivalent rather than what is. There may also be logistic issues because a female breast and a penis are more external. They can create the “bulge” necessary.
I don’t think that is a good question John. I don’t care what should be equivalent. I care what *is* now and present and how women and their breasts are grossly sexualized. And instead of talking about one picture about sexim in tech, I rather we focused on the reality of what the image of “Go Daddy.com” on a young surgically enhanced woman says about what grabs men’s attention and what women are being directly told about their own bodies.
@ Erin
You’re suggesting that men’s chests aren’t sexualized? They certainly are. I’m not prepared to say that they’re sexualized to the same extent that the female breast is although I’m not ruling out the possibility that they actually are, but it’s just something that people don’t want to acknowledge.
John, I am going to forgo a debate with you about who suffers more. Instead, I will only reinforce that even if the body parts being respresented aren’t the same, I believe that women and men both experience the same feelings inregard to such images. Feelings of vulnerability, objectification, degradement, marginlization, disempowerment. A picture of a surgically enhanced woman that embodies the image of Playmate does not feel particuarly empowering to me. Either do I believe that the image of a man’s large bulge feels empowering to you.
It’s not a fair comparison. You are comparing a man’s penis to a woman’s boobs. In advertising that appeals to women, a man’s chest is shown all the time – uncovered! How dare the advertisers oppress men that way!
If you really want to compare apples to apples, you should be showing a woman’s crotch with an easily discernable cameltoe.