Kanye West and Kim Kardashian-West
Weeks after reports first surfaced that Kim Kardashian and Kanye West were separating, their split has finally been confirmed: She filed for divorce on Friday, the Associated Press reports. Aside from a few minor details—that Kim has allegedly hired celebrity divorce attorney Laura Wasser; that Kanye is "enjoying the brouhaha surrounding his divorce" (?) according to one source who spoke to Page Six—we don't know anything substantive about where they stand, how they would share custody of their four kids, or what assets, exactly, they'd have to negotiate dividing up. But to some degree, celebrity divorces follow a blueprint—and by studying it, we can get a better sense of how Kim and Kanye's alleged split might play out.For an understanding of what that blueprint looks like, VICE spoke to Judy Poller, a partner at Pryor Cashman who specializes in family law, and who's represented a number of celebrity clients in divorce proceedings. It's important to note that Poller doesn't have any knowledge of the specifics of Kim and Kanye's situation; instead, she has enough experience with high-profile divorces to shed light on how, generally, their separation might unfold.VICE: If you're a celebrity couple and the press is reporting that you're getting a divorce, why would you stay silent, and neither confirm or deny it?
Judy Poller: For one, if there are children involved, you just don't want that out there. I mean, even if they're really young children, everything's [online], and down the road, they will be able to read what's been written about their parents. That's a main reason. The other is [that] there's a sense of: This is my private world, and it's not for you to know whether I'm going through this or not. We'll tell you when we're ready to tell you. We've got things to work out, we have feelings here. Why do we need to tell you, now, what's going on, when we don't even really know ourselves? I hear what you're asking, like: Why don't you just confirm it's going on? But when you confirm that it's going on, I think that keeps the focus there and the [press] wanting to come back.What are some ways that a celebrity couple might try to keep their divorce, and the negotiations that comprise it, confidential?
The client is going to hire a lawyer that they know keeps things under wraps. There are some attorneys that like to feed things to the press, or have their name out there. So if you really want to have something under wraps, a client's going to hire a lawyer who has that reputation [for discretion].In California, what celebrities do regularly is they hire special judges, and they [negotiate] on the side. Usually, it's retired judges, and they give authority to the judge to make decisions. Nothing is public. There are no filings in the court. There are a lot of cases that are going on in California right now that you don't hear about because they've got private judges. [Editor's note: If Kim and Kanye do in fact get a divorce, they would most likely do so in California, where they primarily reside.]
Ultimately, does any part of their agreement become public?
Every divorce agreement has a confidentiality provision that binds the parties. The divorce judgment—just that they're divorced—may be public. But nothing that says, "Dad has the kids four days a week, mom has them these days"—none of that would be public.How would a prenuptial agreement factor in here, and how common is it for two celebrities who get married to sign a prenup?
A lot of celebrities have prenups. I don't want to say the majority because frankly, it's surprising how many don't. But a lot [do]. It makes a lot of sense to have a prenup because there are complicated pieces to valuing assets: what the value of somebody's royalty stream might be, copyrights, et cetera.
What does a prenup typically look like in a marriage between two celebrities, who were both independently wealthy before they got married?
Everybody has their nuances, but most celebrities have a provision that whatever they earn after the marriage is their separate property. So if you have two celebrities that are continuing in their own worlds [during their marriage], whatever one may earn and the other may earn is their separate property. Only what they put into joint name will be marital property. In California, all marital property is divided equally. Maybe there are jointly owned residences; maybe there are some joint investments; maybe they've gone into joint business endeavors together. And you need to get all the financial information about each of those various assets or endeavors and analyze them.Once a celebrity couple begins the process of getting divorced, what's the first step in beginning negotiations?
Prenup [or] no prenup, there needs to be disclosure of assets. One would fill out a "statement of net worth." It's a financial affidavit that lists expenses and assets. It's like a snapshot of—on the date that this divorce is commencing—what do we have, what's in joint name, and what's in separate name. Once you have that list, then you start figuring out: OK, what do we have to do? What do we have to value? Do we have to hire a real estate appraiser? If you jointly own property, are we going to sell it? Is one of us going to buy the other out? How are we going to deal with this?
When a celebrity couple has children, how do they go about deciding on sharing custody? Are there specific considerations that celebrities have to keep in mind when they're negotiating custody that are different from what regular, non-famous couples might have to think about?
Yes. Whether you have a musician who's on tour a lot, or you have an actor who goes on locations for months at a time, those are much more complicated issues to deal with. Unless you have the cooperation of your ex-spouse—that they're going to work with you to ensure that the child sees the parent—it is tough. No parent wants to be away from their kids for any long stretch. The fights over two weeks' vacation where you don't see your kid is a lot. When you're talking about a much longer stretch, it is so much more complicated. [And] when you have celebrities who have residences in different places all over the country, it becomes that much more complicated.Could you speak to how things get particularly thorny when one parent is a musician?
I mean, if you are on the road touring, and you're going from city to city, unless you have tutors coming along with you, what are you doing with the kid? The custody issues are so much harder. What you really, really need is for the two people to be able to work together and minimize conflicts. If one partner has a mental health issue, how does that affect negotiations over child custody?
That's a really big issue. In contentious custody matters, one parent is inevitably going to bring up that the other parent has issues, whether that's substance abuse or some psychological issue. If somebody is bringing that as an issue, and it's going to be a contested custody proceeding, the court is going to appoint a forensic psychologist to evaluate the parties.Let's say the husband has a diagnosed mental health issue, like, for instance, bipolar disorder. How could the wife use that as leverage against them, and what would she use that fact to bargain for?
Decision making: That she should be the one to make final decisions about any major issues for the kids, because he's not stable. Also, with respect to time, he should have less time, because he's volatile. Would she generally succeed in making those requests?
Not necessarily. If the person is on medication, and is being monitored, no.But what if that person is refusing to take medication? [Editor's note: Kanye West reportedly doesn't take medication for bipolar disorder.]
Well then forget it. I mean, then you're back to: It's a danger to the kids.How might the husband and his attorneys try to push back on that?
Well, how would they do it? Doctor's notes. They'd have to have corroborating information to show that it's [not an issue].How much do divorce attorneys who work with celebrities typically charge?
My hourly rate is $825; Laura [Wasser]'s is probably [similar].
If two celebrities who are divorcing both hire a top-tier attorney—essentially, Laura Wasser or her equivalent—how much will their divorce cost each of them in legal fees, all told?
It depends on how acrimonious it is. If you're going to fight about custody, or you're going to fight about spousal support, you're going to start running into the millions. If you're going to do this in a more reasonable way, you're still looking at tens of thousands of dollars. You're not doing less than $100,000, unless there are no kids. How much do divorce attorneys who work with celebrities typically charge?
My hourly rate is $825; Laura [Wasser]'s is probably [similar].
If two celebrities who are divorcing both hire a top-tier attorney—essentially, Laura Wasser or her equivalent—how much will their divorce cost each of them in legal fees, all told?
It depends on how acrimonious it is. If you're going to fight about custody, or you're going to fight about spousal support, you're going to start running into the millions. If you're going to do this in a more reasonable way, you're still looking at tens of thousands of dollars. You're not doing less than $100,000, unless there are no kids. This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.Update (2/19): This story has been updated to reflect the fact that Kim Kardashian has filed for divorce from Kanye West.Follow Drew Schwartz on Twitter.
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Judy Poller: For one, if there are children involved, you just don't want that out there. I mean, even if they're really young children, everything's [online], and down the road, they will be able to read what's been written about their parents. That's a main reason. The other is [that] there's a sense of: This is my private world, and it's not for you to know whether I'm going through this or not. We'll tell you when we're ready to tell you. We've got things to work out, we have feelings here. Why do we need to tell you, now, what's going on, when we don't even really know ourselves? I hear what you're asking, like: Why don't you just confirm it's going on? But when you confirm that it's going on, I think that keeps the focus there and the [press] wanting to come back.
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The client is going to hire a lawyer that they know keeps things under wraps. There are some attorneys that like to feed things to the press, or have their name out there. So if you really want to have something under wraps, a client's going to hire a lawyer who has that reputation [for discretion].In California, what celebrities do regularly is they hire special judges, and they [negotiate] on the side. Usually, it's retired judges, and they give authority to the judge to make decisions. Nothing is public. There are no filings in the court. There are a lot of cases that are going on in California right now that you don't hear about because they've got private judges. [Editor's note: If Kim and Kanye do in fact get a divorce, they would most likely do so in California, where they primarily reside.]
Ultimately, does any part of their agreement become public?
Every divorce agreement has a confidentiality provision that binds the parties. The divorce judgment—just that they're divorced—may be public. But nothing that says, "Dad has the kids four days a week, mom has them these days"—none of that would be public.How would a prenuptial agreement factor in here, and how common is it for two celebrities who get married to sign a prenup?
A lot of celebrities have prenups. I don't want to say the majority because frankly, it's surprising how many don't. But a lot [do]. It makes a lot of sense to have a prenup because there are complicated pieces to valuing assets: what the value of somebody's royalty stream might be, copyrights, et cetera.
What does a prenup typically look like in a marriage between two celebrities, who were both independently wealthy before they got married?
Everybody has their nuances, but most celebrities have a provision that whatever they earn after the marriage is their separate property. So if you have two celebrities that are continuing in their own worlds [during their marriage], whatever one may earn and the other may earn is their separate property. Only what they put into joint name will be marital property. In California, all marital property is divided equally. Maybe there are jointly owned residences; maybe there are some joint investments; maybe they've gone into joint business endeavors together. And you need to get all the financial information about each of those various assets or endeavors and analyze them.
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Prenup [or] no prenup, there needs to be disclosure of assets. One would fill out a "statement of net worth." It's a financial affidavit that lists expenses and assets. It's like a snapshot of—on the date that this divorce is commencing—what do we have, what's in joint name, and what's in separate name. Once you have that list, then you start figuring out: OK, what do we have to do? What do we have to value? Do we have to hire a real estate appraiser? If you jointly own property, are we going to sell it? Is one of us going to buy the other out? How are we going to deal with this?
When a celebrity couple has children, how do they go about deciding on sharing custody? Are there specific considerations that celebrities have to keep in mind when they're negotiating custody that are different from what regular, non-famous couples might have to think about?
Yes. Whether you have a musician who's on tour a lot, or you have an actor who goes on locations for months at a time, those are much more complicated issues to deal with. Unless you have the cooperation of your ex-spouse—that they're going to work with you to ensure that the child sees the parent—it is tough. No parent wants to be away from their kids for any long stretch. The fights over two weeks' vacation where you don't see your kid is a lot. When you're talking about a much longer stretch, it is so much more complicated. [And] when you have celebrities who have residences in different places all over the country, it becomes that much more complicated.
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I mean, if you are on the road touring, and you're going from city to city, unless you have tutors coming along with you, what are you doing with the kid? The custody issues are so much harder. What you really, really need is for the two people to be able to work together and minimize conflicts. If one partner has a mental health issue, how does that affect negotiations over child custody?
That's a really big issue. In contentious custody matters, one parent is inevitably going to bring up that the other parent has issues, whether that's substance abuse or some psychological issue. If somebody is bringing that as an issue, and it's going to be a contested custody proceeding, the court is going to appoint a forensic psychologist to evaluate the parties.Let's say the husband has a diagnosed mental health issue, like, for instance, bipolar disorder. How could the wife use that as leverage against them, and what would she use that fact to bargain for?
Decision making: That she should be the one to make final decisions about any major issues for the kids, because he's not stable. Also, with respect to time, he should have less time, because he's volatile. Would she generally succeed in making those requests?
Not necessarily. If the person is on medication, and is being monitored, no.
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Well then forget it. I mean, then you're back to: It's a danger to the kids.How might the husband and his attorneys try to push back on that?
Well, how would they do it? Doctor's notes. They'd have to have corroborating information to show that it's [not an issue].How much do divorce attorneys who work with celebrities typically charge?
My hourly rate is $825; Laura [Wasser]'s is probably [similar].
If two celebrities who are divorcing both hire a top-tier attorney—essentially, Laura Wasser or her equivalent—how much will their divorce cost each of them in legal fees, all told?
It depends on how acrimonious it is. If you're going to fight about custody, or you're going to fight about spousal support, you're going to start running into the millions. If you're going to do this in a more reasonable way, you're still looking at tens of thousands of dollars. You're not doing less than $100,000, unless there are no kids. How much do divorce attorneys who work with celebrities typically charge?
My hourly rate is $825; Laura [Wasser]'s is probably [similar].
If two celebrities who are divorcing both hire a top-tier attorney—essentially, Laura Wasser or her equivalent—how much will their divorce cost each of them in legal fees, all told?
It depends on how acrimonious it is. If you're going to fight about custody, or you're going to fight about spousal support, you're going to start running into the millions. If you're going to do this in a more reasonable way, you're still looking at tens of thousands of dollars. You're not doing less than $100,000, unless there are no kids. This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.Update (2/19): This story has been updated to reflect the fact that Kim Kardashian has filed for divorce from Kanye West.Follow Drew Schwartz on Twitter.